17th army, what the...

[Huskalator]

How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it?

The command situation for the allies is pretty staright forward but the Japanese command is all jacked up. The Southern Area covers a huge area of the map. Does that mean that Southern Area Units gain benefits from that entire area?

Here is my understanding of HQs

1) Ground units stationed at a base in their command or are in HQ radius get combat and supply bonuses.

2) Air units based in HQ radius AND stationed at a base in their command recieve replacements, can fly at full capacity, and can upgrade.

How much of that is accurate and what am I missing?

One more unrelated question off the top of my head, will the automatic convoy system attempt to supply my factories. This is my first time playing Japanese.

[Twotribes]

Argh me matey dont use the auto convoy system, it is buggy )

[Huskalator]

What!

Assigning convoys in this UI is not fun. Figuring out my convoys is going to take hours.

EDIT: Will routine convoy move around oil and resources?

[WiTP_Dude]

It takes only a few minutes to do supply convoys. There really aren't that many locations where they need to go. Usually you just send big ones from Japan to places like Truk and Saigon. From there you can send small supply task forces out to smaller places when required.

[Huskalator]

If I just ship a bunch to Saigon then will that disseminate to the entire SE Asian area? China?

[Chris21wen]

On the real point of you email I think the whole of the HQ command structure is screwed up. I posted a similar problem but with the allies. I've got Army HQ that are supposed command HQs but you can't assign bases to them neither can you assign units.

[ZOOMIE1980]

The entire comand structure for the Japanese is goofy. In reality divisions and brigades were tied to corps HQ's an corp HQ's in turn to regional HQ's. 15th Army divisions went to Burma, 25th to Malaysia and later Sumatra, 16th to Borneo and later Java, 14th to the PI, 17th to the Solomons and 18th to NG. And I don't really recal there ever being a "Burma Area Army" regional HQ. And they DID NOT cannabalize units from one another! At most, corp HQ's like the 17th enlisted the help of smaller SNLF size units borrowed from the Combined Fleet HQ.

I really don't want to play another PBEM against a Japanese player without extensive deployment house rules such as no Solomon invasions of ANY kind until the 17th Army HQ has arrived and as well as 17th Army assigned units. No 25th Army divisions can be used in Burma at all, EVER, or at least large PP point expenditures to change from Southern Area Army to Burma Area Army. No lower NG invasions until the 18th Army HQ comes on line an then only with 18th army units! No 14th or 16th Army units without some sort of massive PP expenditure.

That's how things REALLY were in the REAL war. We have so many laying claims to what a "hsitorical" simulation this game is yet not one Japanese player I have ever met plays anything close to "historically".

[freeboy]

Really ZOOMIE? I wouldn't think these arguements are sound in that the JAp player needs help, lots of it too, or else they will simply be gutted by a competent player using the available 42 forces...

that is if they are too agressive. a passive approach, one advocated by several Betas leaves open the whole issue of "what is a realistic 42 strategy for IJN/ IJA in Southern solomans area?

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Really ZOOMIE? I wouldn't think these arguements are sound in that the JAp player needs help, lots of it too, or else they will simply be gutted by a competent player using the available 42 forces...

that is if they are too agressive. a passive approach, one advocated by several Betas leaves open the whole issue of "what is a realistic 42 strategy for IJN/ IJA in Southern solomans area?

I was really miffed by the chosen "chain of command" system, espeically as it pertained to Japan. Historically, all operational commands were Corp level commands and ALL were "restricted" commands to boot. It required very high level decisions to even move idle 16th Army DEI units to the badly depleted 18th Army Command in New Guinea in late 1942 into 1943.

[freeboy]

remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable?

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable?

I'm all for giving players opportunities to improve on Japanese warfighting decisions, but conceptually there should be SOME degree of "chain-of-command" enforcement. I'm a US Service Academy graduate and chain of command type stuff is something I'm extremely ANAL about. I really liked PACWAR's requirement to spend PP points to move units from one CorpHQ to another.

So not only are players knocking out Singapore a month early and the PI three months early, they are moving those divisions, almost immediately to Burma, New Guinea and the Solomons and taking places like Port Morseby and even Noemea or Suva with them before the Americans can even get the Americal to the South Pacific!!! And much less before there's even remotely enough troop transport to respond to anything....

There's advantage and then there's RIDICULOUSNESS!

[Tophat]

Zoomie,
Fine then why don't you play the Japs the "way they should be deployed" and i'll play the allies? I'm by no means a strategic genius,so the Allies will startout handicaped.

[freeboy]

Works both ways the US can move troops in JAn that should be still fitting out and can start new Zealanmd and Brit/oz troops to slow down these advances, and remember theose advances need to be supported by supply coinvoys good luck trying to supply port morsby once my forces get going in mid 42, maybe the answer is to slow down the land combat effects per day, increasing fatigue from battle etc.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Works both ways the US can move troops in JAn that should be still fitting out and can start new Zealanmd and Brit/oz troops to slow down these advances, and remember theose advances need to be supported by supply coinvoys good luck trying to supply port morsby once my forces get going in mid 42, maybe the answer is to slow down the land combat effects per day, increasing fatigue from battle etc.

I play Lemur #26 only. DRASTICALLY reduced Allied OOB to start out. No 2nd Marines, no mythical NZ units. And almost ALL bases set to 0 or 1 airfield size to start with base units all 14 or less in aviation support. As Allies you get one lousy RAC unit in Feb for the South Pacific, one USA Div for Southwest in Mar. That's IT! And for aviation support you have to wait until Feb to get your first Aviation Rgt for the Southwest Pac and your first base units for South pacific don't start arriving with aviation support until late March!

By then late Feb a lot of the Jap players have taken the PI in Jan and then moved the entire 14th Army to Rabaul or Lae in NG and will rampage south through Port Morseby and Noumea before the first US Inf Division even arrives! Lemur has teh OOB almost right but the rules are still nuts.

[2ndACR]

Sounds like you want to watch a re-play of history. With all the mistakes. Where is the fun in that.

Never play me then, I will throw everything and the kitchen sink at you if need be. Be danged if I am going to use divisions to take targets that regiments or brigades can take.
And since I do not have to garrison the PI or Java, I can throw more forces at you anyway than historically was possible.

[mogami]

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: freeboy

remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable?

I'm all for giving players opportunities to improve on Japanese warfighting decisions, but conceptually there should be SOME degree of "chain-of-command" enforcement. I'm a US Service Academy graduate and chain of command type stuff is something I'm extremely ANAL about. I really liked PACWAR's requirement to spend PP points to move units from one CorpHQ to another.

So not only are players knocking out Singapore a month early and the PI three months early, they are moving those divisions, almost immediately to Burma, New Guinea and the Solomons and taking places like Port Morseby and even Noemea or Suva with them before the Americans can even get the Americal to the South Pacific!!! And much less before there's even remotely enough troop transport to respond to anything....

There's advantage and then there's RIDICULOUSNESS!

Well said. Some sort of operations limitations would help for sure.

[Twotribes]

The current restricted HQs doesnt allow for moving units by sea, so making all commands restricted wont work. I honestly think the Japanese player should pay PP for moving forces from one area to another, BUT if that was implemented they would need to recieve more than 50 PP a day or some of the historical moves wouldnt be possible. Then you would have them moving forces from China maybe.

The way the hqs are, unless you get a read out on who went where you cant know what division or unit fought where.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

I think his point has more to do with historical REALITIES and LOGISTICAL limitations than simply following Japanese strategy and strategic timetables. The thing is, WITP has not really dealt well with the logistic aspects of the game. The idea is there, but thats about it.

-ships repair at unreal speeds
-refit model does not actually require yard time, when in real life, these required many weeks and months
-ports have no operations limits or maximum capacity
-no distinction between a naval base and a fishing wharf for supply purposes
-no real political requirements or force minimums for most part aside from a near endless supply of PPs and Kwantung/China (IE. one can strip Bombay of troops in the face of Japanese threat)
-weather does not have much impact on anything...Monsoons in Burma theatre were had strategic implications but seasons don't even affect movement.

We can go on and on but the implications of these limitations are many. The most obvious is the unrealistic pace with which operations can and will be undertaken by player. It still amazes me that these issues remain unaddressed from one incarnation to the next.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

But there MUST be some sort of cost for drawing units from one command to another. And the Southern was a REGIONAL HQ not a Corps HQ, which is another historical falacy in the game. The restrictions should be at the CORE HQ level NOT the regional level. The restrictions reflect the large reluctance of Corp commanders to let go of troops and the angst and in-fighting that happened at the Regional command level over these mass reorganizations. They did them, for sure, but they paid large POLITICAL costs for doing so and that should be reflected. The notion I can take the Imperial Guards from Singapore and 10 days later have them fighting in New Guinea with no PP cost is completely assinine.


And I personally think Lemur's #26 is VASTLY SUPERIOR to #15/16 in the shipping game. And his beta is even better. The only missing thing I can see are the C46 units in the CBI, which I can cure with my own editor. I wouldn't play anyone PBEM in a campaign with anything else. Lemur has the correct model the shipping game does NOT.