Ammo levels

[TMO]

Haven't posted for a long time but still very much enjoying this superb game and looking forward to the next. A purely academic question:

Looking at British airborne units, it's pretty easy to work out how much ammo each Sten gun is allocated (180 rnds) but less certain when trying to work out numbers for each Lee Enfield/Bren/Vickers MMG? (Enfield is my home town btw!!). I would guess 1,000 rnds per MMG, 300 rnds per Bren and 120 rnds per rifle.

What criteria do you use when setting these ammo levels.

Regards

Tim

[Arjuna]

Tim,

I'll let Steve Long answer this question as he has a better handle on the exact basis of calculations these days. However, when I was doing these myself IIRC we worked on 60rds per rifle, 600rds per Bren and 1500rds per MMG. Keep in mind that ammo loads for Brens were usually spread across the whole section - ie every rifleman usually carried at least one Bren mag.

[Golf33]

IIRC the ammo loads are based on what a soldier could carry plus a bit to reflect additional ammo carried in unit transport.

In HTTR the allocations are 180 for Sten, 60 for SMLE, 600 for Bren, and 2000 for Vickers.

Regards
33

[TMO]

Thanks for the helpfull replies.

More questions: in 'The Recollections of Rifleman Bowlby' (a fantastic read!) p 25 the following is quoted:

'Each rifleman will carry a pick or shovel, two hundred rounds of ammo, two grenades and four Bren magazines. Steel helmets....'

My point is that individual ammo loads depended on the circumstances the troops faced. How will these 'one off' situations be handled in future and (may be) past scenarios?

Regards

Tim

[Golf33]

Remember the scale of the simulation is higher than this - there will always be extraordinary events or situations that occurred during historical combat but to attempt to model all or even most of them would be impossible. In an FPS or possibly even squad-level simulation it might matter, but at the company level it's unlikely to have a significant effect and at the game level it really isn't an issue at all. This applies to nearly all the minutiae - things like weapon rates of fire, exact armour thicknesses and penetration capabilities and so on. In order to maintain things at a workable level of detail some things are slightly abstracted, and the most exceptional of circumstances might not make it in.

If we find from reputable sources that something in the game is clearly wrong for the normal circumstances - in this case if it became evident that 200rds of .303 in SMLE clips was a standard load of ammunition for a rifleman, that nine times out of ten would be what was carried - then we would consider changing it. OTOH if it was only in exceptional circumstances that this would occur, then we wouldn't make any changes, since to do so would skew the simulation at the higher level. A clearer example is the ROF of a 25pdr - these guns, with a good crew, were capable of 17rpm in an emergency. However in the context of the game modelling this kind of exceptional rate of fire would actually make things less realistic, since you'd find your 25pdr batteries blasting away a day's worth of ammunition every hour.

The important thing is that on the level being simulated, combat results in the game will nearly always be historically accurate and will always be within the bounds of historical possibility.

Regards
33

[TMO]

Steve

Thanks for the explanation. I was particularly pleased by your closing paragraph

The important thing is that on the level being simulated, combat results in the game will nearly always be historically accurate and will always be within the bounds of historical possibility.

Once again, thanks.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

Steve

I think I'm now actually understanding my own question!!

It all comes down to re-supply. Clearly 200 rds .303 was not a standard (daily) issue, but it was in exceptional circumstances during, say, the opening day of MG or D-Day. In these instances re-supply was uncertain - extra ammo loads had to be carried from day 1. Once unit supply had been established on a regular basis your figures are undoubtedly right.

It's a question of how supply is modelled.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

Came across this at http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

Major H.W. Hannah, the Regimental S-3 officer of the 506th PIR during Normandy, dug-up an old document with the following orders. Although the loads almost certainly changed on the Market-Garden drop, this is of interest to Normandy fans.

Tentative Plan of Basic Ammunition Loads
MI- 30-06 rifle: Rounds per weapon: 136, jumped on individual. (128 in Air Corps pockets, 4 clips per pocket), 1-8 rnd. clip in rifle, hand, or jumpsuit pocket (55% ball, 40% AP, 5% tracer. Rifle belt and one bandolier may be used in lieu of the above. 60 Riflemen per company will jump with 1 belt of LMG ammunition (250 rounds); this may be used in M-1 rifles if the situation warrants. note from webmaster:-the "Air Corps pockets" were rectangular belt pouches, with a pointed flap secured by a press-a-dot snap. These were discontinued in the 101st after Normandy. The military term "ball" ammo means a lead projectile, completely covered with a copper jacket.

Carbine: Rounds per weapon: 175, jumped on individual. 160 in 2 Air Corps pockets (2 clips and one box per pocket), 15 in hand (1 clip) or jumpsuit pocket (100% ball).

Thompson SMG: Rounds per weapon:300, Jumped on individual. 14 (20 rnd) clips in jump suit pockets or M6 carrying bag, 1 clip in gun, hand, or jumpsuit pocket.

Pistol M1911A1: Rounds per weapon: 21, jumped on individual. 2 clips in pouch, one clip in pistol (100% ball, for pistol and TSMG).

'03 Rifle: Rounds per weapon: 145, jumped on individual. 140 in four Air Corps pockets (7 clips per pocket), 1 5 rnd. clip in rifle, hand, or jumpsuit pocket. The '03 rifle may not be used if launcher for M-1 rifle is issued. It is now a superimposed weapon and if jumped will have to supplant the primary weapon of the man jumping it.

'03 Grenades: 10, jumped on individual 5 in each of 2 M6 carrying bags (6 fragmentation, 4 A.T.)

Hand Grenades: 4, Jumped on individual. 4 Grenades in jumpsuit pockets (if M6 carrying bag is used, 6 can be carried.)

Rocket Launcher: Rounds per weapon: 12, to be jumped on individual. l round per man; collected and carried, 6 in each of 2 Infantry packs collected by crew after jump. The folding launcher may be issued, and can be jumped. Launchers may be dropped in bundles: if so, ammunition will be dropped in bundle.

60mm mortar: Rounds per weapon: 80, each mortar jumped on 3 men. 14 riflemen jump with 1 round each. 3 mortar squad members jump with 4 each in M6 bag; 54 dropped in bundles and carried in cart (4 carts per company).

81mm mortar: Rounds per weapon: 54, dropped in bundle;carried by 3 men. 30 rounds in cart, plus 6 rounds on each of 4 men, or 5 rounds on 4 men and 4 rounds on 1. (cart and all rounds dropped in bundle). 80% H.E. light, 20% White Phosphorus.

LMG Browning M1919-A4: rounds per weapon: 3250, jumped on 2 individuals. In LMG platoon, 2,000 rounds dropped in bundle and carried on 81mm mortar cart, or by S-4. 1,250 rounds jumped on men. (80% A.P. and 20% tracer). A.P.=Armor-Piercing (steel cored projectile with copper jacket). 60 riflemen in each company jump with 1 belt of LMG ammunition, as indicated in M-1 rifle listing.

Reserve LMG: rounds per weapon: 6,250, dropped in bundle

The memo concludes;"These ammunition loads are considered to be all that can be carried away from field, regardless of whether machine-guns, 60mm mortars, rocket launchers, or '03 rifles are jumped on the individual or dropped in equipment bundles."

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

The following (apart from the material in square brackets - which is me) is taken from Gary Kennedy's site http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com . But as Gary told me:

All subject to amendment of course for how many extra bandoliers men felt
they might need, or how many extra rounds they could stuff in their pockets!

BOLT ACTION & SEMI-AUTOMATIC & RIFLES
SMLE
As a basic load, each man armed with the rifle carried fifty rounds of ammunition in ten chargers of five rounds each. They were carried in one of the two webbing pouches worn by each rifleman. By 1944 the load had doubled to one hundred rounds, but the additional ammunition was earmarked for the Section Bren Gun. Bandoliers, each containing five pockets (10 rounds per pocket) were also used.

Kar 98k
The rifleman was issued sixty rounds, two five round clips carried in each of the six pouches on his belt.

M1 (Garand)
As a basic load, each soldier was issued ten [8 round] clips, one carried in each of the pouches of the standard rifle belt. Latterly, bandoliers containing six clips were issued, allowing for anywhere between 80 and 128 rounds to be carried by the average soldier.

M1 (Carbine)
Ammunition was carried in pouches containing two [15 round] magazines. The number of pouches worn seems to have varied with unit, most Army men displaying one, while the Marines authorised two. A total of between 45 and 75 rounds seems likely with one magazine carried in the weapon.

MP43 (Sturmgewehr 44)
Ammunition was carried in the same manner as for the MP40. Two pouches, each containing three [30 round] magazines, with perhaps a further one loaded in the rifle for a total of 210 rounds.

FG42
Ammunition was carried by means of an odd-looking bandolier arrangement, hung around the neck. It held eight [20 round] magazines in individual pockets for a total of perhaps 180 rounds with a box loaded.

SUB MACHINE GUNS & MACHINE PISTOLS
Sten
The basic ammunition issue was five [32 – average was 30 round] magazines for a total of 160 rounds, one magazine loaded and four carried in one of the webbing pouches. A purpose made carrier was available for parachute troops, which held seven magazines.

M3
The basic ammunition issue was five [30 round] magazines for a total of 160 [150?] rounds, one magazine loaded and four carried in one of the webbing pouches. A purpose made carrier was available for parachute troops, which held seven magazines.

M1A1 (Thompson)
[20 or 30 round magazine but no info on individual load.]

MP40
I initially said the basic ammunition load was seven [32 round] magazines, one retained in the weapon and six carried in two pouches, each holding three magazines for a total of 224 rounds. However, on reading through my material again I notice that 'officially' there were six magazines issued, total 192 rounds.

LMG’s
Bren
Ammunition wise, each Bren was provided with 25 [30 round] magazines, one with the gun and the rest carried in two boxes holding a dozen each. In the Rifle Section the boxes were not taken into action. Instead, each of the six men in the Rifle Group carried two magazines, and each of the three men in the Gun Group carried four. Two magazines could be held in a single webbing pouch. It was quickly found that the only real flaw concerned the magazines, which if loaded to capacity would jam. The maximum load was therefore reduced to 28 rounds each, 700 rounds for a full complement of magazines. This was rounded up to 1000 rounds with loose ammunition, carried by its vehicle, or distributed as an extra fifty rounds for each man in the Rifle Group.

BAR
[Info on website uncertain - could be up to 500 rounds.]

M1919A4
Ammunition was carried in boxes, each packing a single 250 round fabric belt. How many could be carried along with the other equipment needed depended on the size of the team serving the weapon, but at least 1000 rounds would seem reasonable.

MG42
In the light role, the gunner carried one 50 round belt, loaded into its side mounted drum. His assistant carried four more [50 round belts], plus 300 boxed rounds, while the ammunition bearer carried two further boxes for a total of 1150 rounds per gun. When the ammunition bearer was later deleted from the Rifle Squad, his load was divided among the riflemen.

A lot of this is in line with the info posted earlier by Steve & Arjuna but I think it should be taken as the minimum carried by an individual soldier.

Regards

Tim

[Golf33]

Thanks Tim!

Regards
33

[TMO]

Steve

I've just got down an old leather suitcase from the loft belonging to my late father. (He was an infantry officer. Trained in late '44 to '45 in jungle warfare but his active service started in the Middle East in '45 after Japan surrendered. He ended up in Greece fighting in the Greek Civil War as part of the British Military Mission.) Anyway to cut a long story short, the suitcase contains a whole load of papers from Platoon Commander and Company Commander courses my father attended at Warminster in early '47. There's a lot of fascinating info. One document ('Lecture on the Machine Gun Battalion') relates to MG Bn organisation and employment.

According to the document a MG Bn was organised as a HQ Coy, 3 MMG Coys (12 guns per coy) and also a Hvy ( 4.2") Mortar Coy (16 mortars per coy). Here are some snippets:

Transport
Fighting transport is entirely tracked - MGs on Universal Carriers and 4.2" Mortars towed by Loyd (sic) Carriers.

Ammunition
MMG- Two types - Mk 8Z (normal). 44 belts per gun (equals 11,000 rds) are taken into action, making a total of 396,000 rds in the Bn. No reserves are held in the Bn.

4.2" Mortar -Two types - HE (Streamline), Smoke W.P. (Cylindrical) (Each type weighs 20 lbs). 85 bombs per Mortar (equals 1360 bombs) are taken into action. A reserve of 540 bombs is held at Coy HQ.

Regarding the MMGs

B.Z. at 800 yds - 2.7 x 177 yds, B.Z. at 2000 yds - 9.3 x 68 yds

Has two rates of fire. Normal 1 belt in 2 mins. Rapid 1 belt in 1 min.

Max ranges - Mk 8Z - 4500 yds, Mk 7 - 2800 yds.

Speed into action - after Pl Comd has received orders -Direct fire (ground action) - 20-30 mins, Direct fire (Carrier action) - 5-10 mins, Indirect fire - 30-40 mins.

Regarding the mortars

Bombs must be expected to land within an area of from 270 to 350 yds long by 100 to 140 yds wide, depending on the range.

Max range - 4100 yds. Cannot fire at ranges less than 1050 yds.

Weight of fire - (Platoon (4 Mortars) can produce a heavy weight of fire - approx 40 aimed bombs, each weighing 20 lbs, can be fired in one minute.

Speed into action - As a general guide 30-40 mins from the time orders are received. Quick action is 5-10 mins.

Other interesting info fom some of the other documents: both towed and SP (given as Valentine and Avenger - never heard of these as tank destroyers) A/T time into action given as 2 mins - LAA (i.e. Bofors) can be as fast as 40 seconds!

I'll post more info when I get the time and if anyone is interested.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

This is from Stuart Hills 'By Tank into Normandy'. He was A Sherman M4 tank commander from Normandy until the end of war in Europe. Here he is describing the interior of the tank:

The Sherman carried about a hundred shells in all, a mixture of high explosive, armour-piercing and smoke rounds, as well as about twenty-five boxes of belted ammunition for the Browning machine guns.

As modelled in HTTR the number of shells carried by Sherman 75's agrees with this description. If a box contains 250 rounds of belted MG ammunition then each Sherman carried 6,250 rounds. Assuming a Firefly carried half as much MG ammunition (it only had one MG), then each Firefly carried 3,125 rounds.

In HTTR a squadron comprising 11 Sherman 75's and 4 Fireflies has 57,281 rounds of MG ammunition. If the above quote is to be believed it should have 81,250. Or have I got the number of rounds per box wrong?

Any comments?

Regards

Tim

[Golf33]

Depending on the model, .30 cal ammunition for the Sherman varied from 4000 to 6750 rounds. The only reference actually specifying an ammunition quantity for the Firefly is onwar.com (referencing Hunnicutt's Sherman and Aberdeen Proving Ground's Tank Data), which gives it 5000 rounds of .30 cal. Since we don't distinguish between minor Sherman models, and since there are a lot of vehicles (including armoured cars and halftracks) all using the same weapon, we compromised on 2000 rounds per MG.

Regards
33

[TMO]

Steve

Here's another quote, this time from 'With the Jocks' by Peter White (Peter was a Pl comander with the KOSB) describing his personal kit:

Having struggled once more into the weight and harness of equipment - small pack and gas cape, waterbottle, short-handled assault shovel, rifle, bayonet, 50 rounds, .303 revolver, compass, 48-hour ration pack, first aid kit, tin hat, mess tin, mug etc - we were ready to go.

The ammunition load he carried appears similar to that modelled in HTTR and supports figures I quoted earlier from Gary Kennedy's site. It seems to me that this load is the basic minimum. My feeling is that in operations such as MG and D-Day paratroops (at least) would be carrying extra ammo (which at present isn't modelled in HTTR). With COTA in the pipeline will ammo levels be reviewed?

A question: the .50" MG on Shermans is not modelled in HTTR. What's the reason behind this decision?

Regards

Tim

[Golf33]

The Shermans (like about 75-80% of the HTTR estab) predates me, but I believe the reasoning behind that is that the M2 HMG is primarily an AA weapon and can in any case only be used when the vehicle is unbuttoned. Since we don't directly model buttoned/unbuttoned states (this is well below the detail horizon of the game) the decision was made not to model the weapon at all.

Re small-arms ammunition, there's a lot to consider in COTA and apart from anything else, evidence relating to small-arms ammunition loads in the late war period is not necessarily valid for the early war period - after all nearly every army underwent significant changes in organisation and equipment in the intervening years and I should think learning about ammunition expenditure in combat would have formed part of those changes. If I get time I'll certainly consider it but it won't be a priority.

Regards
33

[TMO]

Steve

Have you come across this website?

http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/maindoc.htm

Lots of useful info.

Regards

Tim

[Golf33]

Yes, thanks Tim, it is an excellent site that I use quite a bit. The Organisation for Manoeuvre for various RA units in the early-war period was quite invaluable for doing the COTA estabs!

Regards
33

[Golf33]

Another good site for tracing RA units is http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/. It's far from complete but in conjunction with the Official Histories of the RA (Field and Anti-Aircraft) it's a good basis for research.

Regards
33

[TMO]

Steve

I know I keep banging on about this subject, but came across the following at http://www.arnhemarchive.org/equip_75pack.htm describing 75mm Pack Howitzers at Arnhem:

The American airborne units parachuted their guns into action in nine separate sections, however the British preferred to deliver them complete and ready for firing as soon as possible, and so transported them in Horsa gliders. Two gliders were required to transport a gun crew and their equipment. Typically, one would carry the weapon itself, a jeep, and an ammunition trailer, together with the sergeant in command of the crew and three subordinates, while the other would carry the remainder of the crew (commonly including one NCO), a jeep, and the remaining two ammunition trailers. In these trailers were 137 rounds; 125 high-explosive, 6 armour piercing, and 6 smoke.

In HTTR these guns are modelled at start as having as only having 3 rnds AP and 62 rnds HE each i.e. half the amount this source suggests. Any thoughts?

Regards

Tim

[Golf33]

Tim,

just to let you know I've seen this, but haven't got time to look into it right now. I'll get back to you when I get the chance.

Regards
33