Naval movement and combat

[Drax Kramer]

How do, in most general terms, naval movement and combat work? What are the movement capabilities of submarine, light surface, heavy surface and carrier fleets respectively?

Is there a difference between combat and non-combat movements?

What are the advantages of carrier vs heavy surface fleet? Is it possible for surface fleet to win the battle against the carrier fleet?

Who picks the casualties?


Drax

[Oleg Mastruko]

Too many questions for a single post dude. See that we got lazy here lately [:D]

There are many many MANY paragraphs of rules about naval movements. Read the FAQ post to get idea about some of the naval nuances. Movement is (from memory) 8 areas per turn for subs, 12 for CV and DD fleets, 10 IIRC for heavy fleets, 7 for transport fleets (although transport fleets have some special rules regarding their movement). These movement rates really do come into play when you're transferring huge naval assets from one part of the world to another.

Is there a difference between combat and non-combat movements?

You first move, then you do combat. These are separate "operations", so there is no such thing as "combat movement". BUT, there is so called "hostile zone rule", which says that your combat "strength" will be depleted if you travel thru many "hostile zones" to get to the combat area (now this is very simplified here).

What are the advantages of carrier vs heavy surface fleet? Is it possible for surface fleet to win the battle against the carrier fleet?

If a player with CV fleet allows his CV fleet to be attacked by enemy heavy fleet then that player is stupid [:D] Heavy fleet is less mobile than CV fleet (12 to 10 IIRC), and any CV fleet movement should be accompanied by your own BB and DD fleets for protection (as in real life). CV fleets are meant to attack at range where enemy BB fleets can't even touch them (ie. you use CVs to attack adjacent areas, without even coming into contact with enemy BB fleets). So in reality BB fleets attacking enemy CV fleets will be rare spectacle indeed.

O.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Movement is (from memory) 8 areas per turn for subs, 12 for CV and DD fleets, 10 IIRC for heavy fleets, 7 for transport fleets

Wow, that seems really far. Isn't 10 zones something like New York to the Cape of Good Hope? It seems like it would be hard to bottle up or pursue fleets that are so ... fleet.[:)]

[Oleg Mastruko]

No it's definitely not NY to South Africa. Most sea zones require 2 movement points to enter (those are zones with double lines as border on map). Actually I think sea movement is very nicely balanced.

O.

[Drax Kramer]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

If a player with CV fleet allows his CV fleet to be attacked by enemy heavy fleet then that player is stupid [:D] Heavy fleet is less mobile than CV fleet (12 to 10 IIRC), and any CV fleet movement should be accompanied by your own BB and DD fleets for protection (as in real life). CV fleets are meant to attack at range where enemy BB fleets can't even touch them (ie. you use CVs to attack adjacent areas, without even coming into contact with enemy BB fleets). So in reality BB fleets attacking enemy CV fleets will be rare spectacle indeed.

OK, here's an example. RN Mediterranean Fleet comprised of one carrier, one heavy and one light fleet based in East Mediterranean sea zone, wants to attack Regia Marina of one heavy and two light fleets based in Central Mediterranean sea zone.

What do you send against Italians? Swordfish alone? Who picks the casualties?

Or alternative example where brave Axis player wants to attack British with same forces available as listed above. The range is hardly an issue since two zones are adjacent to each other so Italians seek a "hrkljus" ("melee" for readers outside South East Europe) with British. Who shoots at whom and who picks the casualties?


Drax

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Drax Kramer

OK, here's an example. RN Mediterranean Fleet comprised of one carrier, one heavy and one light fleet based in East Mediterranean sea zone, wants to attack Regia Marina of one heavy and two light fleets based in Central Mediterranean sea zone.

I wouldn't want to attack RM with Med fleet alone. I'd use some help from Force H from Gibraltar, at the very least.

But OK, theoretically, what I'd do is move RN Med fleet BB and DD fleet in Central Med area and take CV air unit from CV fleet and move it over Central Med zone, to "hover" over the battlefield (so to speak). CV itself would remain in "safe" East Med zone.

Then, I'd "trigger" the combat in Central Med, observe the results, and move DD and BB fleets with their remaining movement points BACK to East Med zone to protect the carrier in the next turn. CV air unit will go back to CV automatically, after conducting the attack in Central Med zone. Hope this explains mechanisms of naval-air battles somewhat.

What do you send against Italians? Swordfish alone? Who picks the casualties?

Well, yes Swordfish alone (I'd usually try to keep CV fleet out of the combat zone). Bear in mind Swordfish icon represents whole "CV air fleet", complete with fighters etc. In fact poor stringbag is not even active as icon in the game so Brit CVs use SBD Dauntless as their icon.

Or alternative example where brave Axis player wants to attack British with same forces available as listed above. The range is hardly an issue since two zones are adjacent to each other so Italians seek a "hrkljus" ("melee" for readers outside South East Europe) with British. Who shoots at whom and who picks the casualties?

Italians would initiate hrkljus in same manner - by sending their fleets to East Med, and triggering combat. Casualties are "picked" by somewhat complex combat routine, as in any other combat. They (Italians) would still have to endure CV air attack in this hrkljus situation you describe. Their chances of damaging CV fleet with surface action will be slim, because, to quote the rules (hope Joel won't mind me posting this):

38) The number of heavy and light fleets that participate in a naval battle is limited. This is to cut down on the benefit of massing large amounts of surface forces, which historically were rarely able to all contact the enemy in a battle at once. When a naval battle happens, roll 1 to N (where N is equal to the number of heavy and light fleets in the area of the player with the most of these fleets in the area). Then, if the roll is greater than 1, roll again 1 to X (where X is the first roll). This is the number of fleets that will fight. Use Light, Heavy, Light, Heavy (for each side) until they are all engaged, then Carrier, then transports. All air units fight, and sub and anti-sub combat is normal. Never forces a player to match up a light against a heavy if they have a heavy to use.

I see we both read the forums at work, way to go, but you work for the Government, shame on you. [:D][:D]

O.

[Joel Billings]

Thanks for the summary Oleg. A few additional points when considering strategy of naval combat. Every fleet you move uses up supplies. Every fleet you move more than 1 area uses a lot of supplies. So, the attacker always spends more to get to the battlefield, and supplies must be produced with the same factories and resources that build units and buy weapons research.

Second, if you move past hostile land areas on the way to a distant battle, you will be reduced in value when you fight. Only kicks in when you move more than 1 region. Force H will suffer a -3 reduction when moving from the Atlantic to fight in the Central Med, so doing a run in like this will be much less effective than staging units from the East or West Med into a battle in the Central Med.

Third, to win control of an area and force an opponent to retreat, you must inflict at least one casualty and have 2 to 1 remaining naval power in the area after the battle is resolved. Thus, if you want to take an area, you must send in a large force (which costs supplies), however, depending on the die rolls, you may actually have very little ship to ship combat (of course the more forces sent, the greater the chance of a major ship to ship battle). However, all air units fight. That's why carriers are so important (as is land based airpower which can also defensively patrol over your units during enemy player turns if you put them out there during your turn). Airpower can be decisive as it should be.

Once you press the resolve combat button, everything is out of your hands and the combat is resolved by the computer (this allows easy PBEM play as there is no decisions for the non-phasing players).

As you can see, this isn't as simple as Axis & Allies. It's not hard to move the units around and execute combat, but fully understanding the system and coming up with the optimum use of force and global strategies can take some time and is what make the game so much fun.

[Drax Kramer]

Thanks for quick and informative replies (now I am at home). One last question:

What is the maximum range of carrier aircraft?

Please, don't tell me it's possible for Nagumo to send his Kates and Vals to attack Spruance's carriers at Pearl while Kido Butai is safely anchored in Hiroshima (possible in Axis&Allies).


Drax

[Oleg Mastruko]

CV air has range of 2, for all sides, at the beginning. You can try to research that value, so that your CV aircraft are longer reached than those of your enemies, but I think 3 or 4 is the most you could hope to get realistically. There are 9 "range units" between Kure and PH.

Read the AARs where Maurice played Japan. I think he explained in some detail how he did that first PH strike as Japan.

I'm still at work, that's why I reply so quickly [:D]

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Then, I'd "trigger" the combat in Central Med, observe the results, and move DD and BB fleets with their remaining movement points BACK to East Med zone to protect the carrier in the next turn. CV air unit will go back to CV automatically, after conducting the attack in Central Med zone. Hope this explains mechanisms of naval-air battles somewhat.

I now note that I wasn't completely clear in this paragraph above. I would take surface units back to protect the carrier only in case I didn't care to "take" Central Med area. If I won and took the area, and wanted to remain there, then I'd bring CV to Central Med. But the general idea is the same - CV fleet's best company are: a) another CV fleet [:D]; b) BB fleet, c) DD fleet

O.

[WanderingHead]

We have a lot of pictures zoomed in close to Europe. Could you maybe post something that would show the whole Atlantic where we could get a feel for the distances in terms of sea zones?