Limited Intel - Yea or Nay

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:22 am

I'd like some feedback here. I've recently started playing with Limited Intel "on," and I'm getting murdered! I just can't see it as realistic for one of my units to fire on an enemy unit, and then find the enemy has disappeared when the next turn starts. If there were smoke or the enemy moved, sure, but losing LOS without some reason is irritating the hell out of me (besides which, my guys are being chewed to pieces!). What do you think about it?

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:40 am

50m is a lot of space and 10 or 12 guys can spread out and hide and move around a lot in "several minutes". They may not be moving out of teh hex, but are likely scrambling within the hex if their current piece of cover...isn't!

The enemy may appear "frozen in place" during your turn, but they really aren't...

Also when you think you "know" an enemy is in a hex, try rallying the troops that you think can see it, even a moderate amount of suppression can casue you to "lose track" of just where those enemy soldiers were...rallying will often make them suddenly reappear!

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:49 am

If it were not for what Paul describes here as a solution (and it does work), I might have to agree with a nay.

I have found, however, that usually one unit can see the enemy. Once I click on it and the enemy is spotted, then all the other units can see it too. Ah, yes!

So my vote would be "Yea."

Wild Bill

kurtbj · Post by **kurtbj** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:51 am

I love the limited Intel option. It works for your troops as well to help them hide once they are spotted. It can looklike the enemy has disappeared when in reality they are just keeping quiet with their heads down.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:49 am

As far as I know, I've never played with it off now that I think about it. The only thing I have off is C&C. The "troops disappearing" thing is frustrating, but as Paul said sometimes it's a function of your own troops suppression. When it's not it can be a bear to have to "find" them again!

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:50 am

And besides, you're always irritated anyway! LOL

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:59 am

The only thing I dont like about limited intel is when towed guns disappear, especially when there in a "clear" hex, and my troops are not suppressed. I just dont see how a 37mm/88mm/ etc can not be seen from one turn to the next. Now if it was in a forest, wheat field, or some other kind of terrain thats different. Recently while playing the Stalingrad campaign my 2 man recon squads were being fired upon by 37mm AA guns at around 12-15 hexes and I could not spot the guns shooting. That was really frustrating.

Figmo · Post by **Figmo** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:15 am

When playing the AI - I always have it off because the AI seems to know which ones are my leaders - so I want the same advantage.

If playing a human - it's best on - it works to both players advantage.

Figmo

Rick Borovec · Post by **Rick Borovec** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:37 am

Originally posted by McGib:

The only thing I dont like about limited intel is when towed guns disappear, especially when there in a "clear" hex, and my troops are not suppressed. I just dont see how a 37mm/88mm/ etc can not be seen from one turn to the next. Now if it was in a forest, wheat field, or some other kind of terrain thats different.

I'd agree with McGib on this point. I have never played with it off, now that I stop and think about it.

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:43 am

At first I loved it, then I hate it then I want to have it back for more testing and finally I just forget about it.
My main problem is that I play some what big battle ( Brigade sized campaign or more ), and that troups only remember of the position of 1 ennemy unit ( the last one they fire at ) so it is hell to remember all and every hexes they were seen. I also use a LOT OF ARTILLERY , in fact an insane number, i fact I tend to take all my support point in artillery buying every gun bigger than 100mm until it's rarity make them unavaliable ( but only Off board one ( no the cheaty on board )). The result is a lot of suppression for ennemies troups and some casualties and a no care about smoke screening ( rolling barrage of 105mm or 122mm, 1 battery every 50 meters provide a real nice smoke coverage ). But the haze that tend to cover the battle make the visibility so poor I dont have a lot of fire option and spotting. Not to talk about a land that became quite good for defense. SO I foesnt allways manage to keep track of every ennemies.

My second problem is that I find that it is far more efficient for CPU than for players, he can see a sniper at 12 hexes moving slowly I cant see a Log bunker or a full 16 men squad in the same desert hex.

My third problem is that it is far too much generic, the troups ducking behind cover and out of sight is nice ( but wasn't cover alerady taken into account in targetting/damage terrain effect, and ducking in an exp check ? seems you double effect this .. ) but it became really stupid in some occasion. You tell about an 37mm air gun, French done better to me they manage to hide from one turn to the other a MAGINOT LINE OUVRAGE : yep an 300++ tons concrete bunker at less than 500 meters and in sandy rough ... You can bet I have made all the surviving yankee troups from my CCM Brigade medical heavy double check ( and believe it wasn't lon gto check all the 27 of them. ).

So I would love to have it back , but could you just tweak it a bit ? or separate his effect in several option as I already suggest
I would like to keep just the Firer not always spot and Not knowing numbers...

Greg McCarty · Post by **Greg McCarty** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:12 am

Originally posted by REMF:
I'd like some feedback here. I've recently started playing with Limited Intel "on," and I'm getting murdered! I just can't see it as realistic for one of my units to fire on an enemy unit, and then find the enemy has disappeared when the next turn starts. If there were smoke or the enemy moved, sure, but losing LOS without some reason is irritating the hell out of me (besides which, my guys are being chewed to pieces!). What do you think about it?

Limited Intel is precisely what it is designed to be. War is nasty. The enemy will evade, than kill you. There is no magic. This is by design. Learn to cope, or
turn it off. Personally, I often use reconnaisance by fire. If I think an area is
infested, I pour something in there sufficient to get them to move or show themselves. Sometimes you get more back than
what you bargained for, so use a big hammer.

Del · Post by **Del** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 6:12 am

A 88 flak is a BIG piece of equipment. When it fires it tends to make a more than a small bit of airborne chaff. How it can remain hidden or even become hidden without moving is pure magic. Limited intel is an excellent idea but it does need to be fine tuned so it makes a little more sense when dealing with large guns or tanks the size of a house. For infantry it works just as it should.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:05 am

I use limited intel on about 98 percent of the time myself. Sometimes I don't when testing stuff, and in Stalingrad I stopped using it when I figured out that the 2 man AT teams had been buffed to 10 and the 4 man MG teams to 12.

Except for that, I always use it. I think it makes the game way more fun.

Alex

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:38 am

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that "Limited Intel" is a reflection of your own troops' ability to effectively spot enemy units, not that the enemy is "hiding" or "disappearing".

For those of you who have never tasted the fury of combat, it is hard to realize that troopers can, and will, lose track of the enemy; if you stepped out of your house and were fired on by a machinegun, would you you know where it came from? If you thought it was in your neighbor's house, would you stick your head out the window to "spot" it?

I like the limited intel aspect; in fact, I won't play without it. For the sake of "realism", it's a necessity.

And before anyone brings up the "a gun that size can't disappear", I have an answer as to why it can....the smoke from it's own firing adds to the general haziness of the air. In fact, with the right wind, the smoke will drift toward the target, obscuring their spotting ability.

Another note: how many of you have been to a desert? Ever notice the heat wave effect on your vision? Now compound that with bullets flying around you, bombs falling, men screaming in pain, men screaming orders, and engine noise.....and try to tell which window in which house in which direction that last shell came from. And then do it again, and again, and again. Now tell me you "spotted" the gun each time.

It's a preference....you either prefer it on or you prefer it off. But IMHO, it makes this "game" a bit more like real life....I already have more info than the average field general will ever have during a battle; limited intel keeps me from being omniscient.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:49 am

Thanks, all. I may not like it, but I'll defer to the group conscience, play with it on and make the best of it.

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:26 pm

Originally posted by Del:
A 88 flak is a BIG piece of equipment. When it fires it tends to make a more than a small bit of airborne chaff. How it can remain hidden or even become hidden without moving is pure magic. Limited intel is an excellent idea but it does need to be fine tuned so it makes a little more sense when dealing with large guns or tanks the size of a house. For infantry it works just as it should.

Ah but the Germans in North Africa set up the 88's so the barrel was only a couple of feet off the ground and the entire unit could not be seen at 100 meters or greater. This is of course a dugin position. But it does go to show what can be done even with a large gun. As for bunkers some of the Bunkers at Normandy were not found untill the troops actualy overran them. Bunkers have the additional advantage, if they have been in place for a long time grass and trees grow on them providing more camafloge. I leave limit intel on even though I have on occasion know that an enemy unit is in a hex (he fired on me and I remembered where he is) I have driven units through the hex and not seen him, I have unloaded infantry in the same hex and not seen him. Finally I left an infantry unit in the hex and the next time he fired I had him spotted. There is a way to tell if there is an invisible unit in the hex with you. Your icon is slightly offset to the top of the hex.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed Jun 13, 2001 12:12 pm

One thing we've all wanted in wargames is some uncertainty...some moments when things don't always go as they should (or as we hoped)

Limited intel, along with limited ammo, reduced squads, etc., provide that element of uncertainty.

While frustrating at times, I do feel it adds more realism to the game.

Someone could say the same for C&C

. Now that is one I try to avoid

, but it is far more realistic!

Wild Bill

General Mayhem · Post by **General Mayhem** » Wed Jun 13, 2001 7:43 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
One thing we've all wanted in wargames is some uncertainty...some moments when things don't always go as they should (or as we hoped)

Limited intel, along with limited ammo, reduced squads, etc., provide that element of uncertainty.

While frustrating at times, I do feel it adds more realism to the game.

Someone could say the same for C&C . Now that is one I try to avoid , but it is far more realistic!

Wild Bill

I don't know. To me problem with SP's
and C&C is that I don't feel it does
add realism a lot.

Sure units are off the ability to command
them, but on the other hand how many
commanders give orders each and every
tanks and squad?

I think it would be more realistic if
tanks and crews wouldn't do some orders
but could do maybe one or two, picked randomly.

After all, shouldn't they still have own ititiave and do *something* even if they
lose contact?

Just a idea.

Tom Terror · Post by **Tom Terror** » Wed Jun 13, 2001 8:17 pm

"One thing we've all wanted in wargames is some uncertainty...some moments when things don't always go as they should (or as we hoped)"

That´s definitely right Wild Bill! Nobody wants battles right out of the construction kit.
Nasty things happen, we got to react and overcome these situations. That makes wargaming fun!

Tom

Peregrine Falcon · Post by **Peregrine Falcon** » Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:01 pm

Always ON. Its more realistic that way.

(Well, sometimes really annoying (unrealistic) with certain units..)