A bad start for the new year - big carrier battle near Lunga

[WhoCares]

First round since Christmas and not the best one...
<story in 7 parts>

The situation: it is mid August '42 in a full campaign against allied AI (difficulty hard). So far, no major sea battles involving carriers took place but I managed to sink the Yorktown and hurt some more allied carriers with my Betties. I control the air over PM and shut down its airfield after a fierce air battle and countless Zero sweeps from Lae and bombardments from Rabaul (unfortunatly, the AI does not evacuate PM airfield and must have run low on B17s and other bombers until now. But that's a different story...).
I did some mistakes, most notably (in the context of this battle) not invading Tassafaronga while landing at Lunga gave his forces a place to retreat too and now I (almost) face the situation as historically, but the other way around, where the US sends 'reinforcements' - just that the AI sends them to Lunga, I kick them out and they all end in Tassafaronga (till now, there must be remnants of two Kiwi Brigades, two or three american divisions and other forces - to kind of the AI to send them in small pieces and against my CVs and/or BBs, but that's just another different story... [8|])

Lately, the things heated up when the AI pulled together its CVs and showed up around Tarawa (with a carrier at a time, obviously in transit to Noumea) and temporarily controlled the air (and thus the waters) around the Solomons, while my carriers were at home for some R&R. To support desperatly needed reinforcement and supply deliveries to Shortland and Lunga and some cleanup missions around I 'hurried' the repairs and cancelled the scheduled upgrades of Akagi and Hiryu, sending them back to Truk and the Solomons, together with Shokaku, Soryu and Kaga. Three more (Zuikaku, Junyo and Hiyo) finished R&R/construction and just arrived at Truk.

And now the 'party' started...

For whatever reason I command my CV TF south of Guadalcanal. (and no, it was not in support of the landing at Rennell)

[WhoCares]

(note the AAA value is not that bad - and not to forget the number of planes; also note the Oi and there are also some radar-equipped DDs)

[WhoCares]

(not so much stronger in AAA and only smaller vessels as the gun value shows, but ~70 more planes)

Also note the damage to the CVs from previous Betty attacks (several weeks ago!)

[WhoCares]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/17/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Port Moresby , at 53,91 <basically closed, ~50% damage>

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17
A6M3 Zero x 53
Ki-21 Sally x 62
Ki-49 Helen x 20
Ki-46-II Dinah x 4

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Wirraway: 5 destroyed, 6 damaged
B-26B Marauder: 11 destroyed, 4 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
C-47 Dakota: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
Beaufort V-IX: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
Hudson I: 4 destroyed, 9 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 7 destroyed, 7 damaged
A-20B Boston: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged
Catalina I: 2 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
64 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 70

Aircraft Attacking:
All bombing at 11000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 69,100

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 57

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 35
SBD Dauntless x 95
TBF Avenger x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 26 destroyed, 2 damaged <moderate losses>

Allied aircraft losses <great score against the fighters, but the performance against the bombers...>
F4F-4 Wildcat: 55 destroyed, 9 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 35 destroyed, 32 damaged
TBF Avenger: 5 destroyed, 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
83 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
26 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 69,100 <still good against the Wildcats>

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 21
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBF Avenger x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 16 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 35 destroyed, 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged
TBF Avenger: 2 destroyed, 12 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chokai
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Shokaku, on fire, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
14 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 69,100 <the CAP must have been tired or out of ammo by now>

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 11
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBF Avenger x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 21 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 7 damaged
TBF Avenger: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hiryu, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Nachi

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
13 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,101 <finally I return some of the favour, but the CAP/AAA is devestating>

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41
D3A Val x 68
B5N Kate x 40

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 93

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 76 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A Val: 61 destroyed, 20 damaged
B5N Kate: 75 destroyed, 26 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 11 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1
CV Enterprise
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
30 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
14 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,101 <same game but I always score some hits>

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
D3A Val x 24
B5N Kate x 35

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 40

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 26 destroyed
D3A Val: 19 destroyed
B5N Kate: 52 destroyed, 20 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 35 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hornet, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,101 <funny enough, w/o escort the CAP is not so effective [;)]>

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 26

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 21 destroyed, 8 damaged


Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, on fire
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Lunga at 67,97 <different TF>


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 8


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Katori, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Rennell Island at 66,99 <another different TF, even though the name is almost the same [:'(]>


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 7


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Natori, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 69,100 <afternoon raids, my planes all returned to Lunga>


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 21
SBD Dauntless x 40
TBF Avenger x 19


No Allied losses <where is my AAA fire[&:]>

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, on fire, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
CV Akagi, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
40 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
19 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,101 <lucky enough, the enemy TF is in range from Lunga and the beaten air groups really launch again>

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
D3A Val x 13
B5N Kate x 3

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
D3A Val: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 destroyed


Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, on fire
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3
D3A Val x 14

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 74 troops unloading over beach at Rennell Island, 66,99


Japanese ground losses:
30 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rennell Island <but I capture Rennell - wonder whether it was worth it [:D]>

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 257 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 9 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Rennell Island base !!!

[WhoCares]

<not so bad fighter AA score and with the PM raid I even win in this statistic>

Note the high ops losses of carrier based planes - seems there was no more room on the remaining carriers and no bases to divert them to.

btw: any hinds to avoid the high ops losses to my Zeros [&:]

[WhoCares]

<checking all the ships they are almost out of AAA ammunition and even the gun ammo dropped, most likely due to the Akizukis and Kamikazes using them as AAA>

Hiryu already sunk, Soryu, Kaga and Akagi will most likely follow, Shokaku isn't save either with all the fires and floodings...

Note: For easier display, I rejoined the split up TFs. btw: The original TF leader (Yamada) was already lost after turn resolution - but that's okay with me, his suicide was inevitable [:D]!

[WhoCares]

<Wasp might go down, but that's it [:(]; only ~50% of the AAA ammo used, but also 50% of the planes lost>

[String]

Is it just me or do the allies always get in the first strikes?

[2ndACR]

Seems that way to me. Course he got his handed to him by the AI.

The loss of 4 of the starting CV's and all those pilots. I doubt he can recover from it.

But Allied AA is a mother to overcome. I lose more planes to AA fire than to fighters. I wish all my land based AA units could be as effective as 2 allied CA's.

[WhoCares]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Seems that way to me. Course he got his handed to him by the AI.

The loss of 4 of the starting CV's and all those pilots. I doubt he can recover from it.

But Allied AA is a mother to overcome. I lose more planes to AA fire than to fighters. I wish all my land based AA units could be as effective as 2 allied CA's.

As it seems it is more like the loss of 5 CVs, as Shokaku is now at 81-81-22. However, no carrier sank yet (one turn later).

And yes, the AAA results are discouraging - seems the only option for the japanese is to keep his carriers alive and hope that the allied player fears the paper tiger they seem to be. And never ever shall he dare to use them against anything else than merchant vessels [:(]

And why was my AAA fire so useless - not for nothing did I put high AAA value and radar equipped vessels in that TF...


btw: I don't fear the recovery so much. Most of the airgroups are save and after a few month with some training in the PI they might be able to scare some allied landing forces - of course, the mobility is seriously hampered - c'est la guerre. I think, there are some CV/E/Ls coming that might need some carrier trained airgroups as well [8|]

Furthermore, I might still somewhat rely on my Betties and Nells - with Lae keeping PM out of the game the Solomons might not be such an easy game for the allies. Of course, my Marshalls are not yet in the state I wanted them to be...

[Gen.Hoepner]

In my last pbem turn, i got similar results against 3 allied carriers TF: 20 nells damaged out of 27( 5 were shot down by flak) and 15 betties damaned with 4 shot down. The allied flak is just so awesome that you really need to consider weather it is worth to use a Leite Gulf tactic( use the carriers as mirror and smash with the surface fleet)[:@]

[Mynok]

Doesn't AA fire at DB's once at altitude before they drop, then once at 2000 feet after they drop? That's what I recall seeing in the animations.

What altitudes did you use for your bombers? I use 15k for Vals and 10k for Kates. If you use 5k for Kates against Allied AA, you will get plastered.

[WhoCares]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Doesn't AA fire at DB's once at altitude before they drop, then once at 2000 feet after they drop? That's what I recall seeing in the animations.

What altitudes did you use for your bombers? I use 15k for Vals and 10k for Kates. If you use 5k for Kates against Allied AA, you will get plastered.

Well, the Zeros were between 21 and 23k, the Vals at 20k and the Kates at 18k. So high, just to avoid the AAA while running in, accepting less hits.

What bothers me actually more are the bad results of my AAA, despite his planes having to come down to 2k/200 as well... 31 vs 7, despite a similar AAA rating of the TF. I don't know at which altitude the allied bombers came in, but I expect lower then mine, which would give my ships a better chance to hit (granted the generally worse performance of japanese AAA)... But one example does not make a statistic...

[Ron Saueracker]

Never use these big TFs with all eggs in one basket. I know it keeps the TFs fromreacting all over the place and screwing the mutual CAP if the TFs stay together, the AI splits strikes if more than one TF is present, making it endure CAP twice. I don't really agree with this "gauntlet of CAP" which the air model allows but I'm still not sure how CAP degrades over multiple incoming strikes in the game.

Boy that idea of a Task Group to organize TFs in sure would be good to keep the AI from screwing the pooch and reacting seperately all the time. Hint, hint...[;)]

[WhoCares]

At day two after the battle Akagi and Shokaku went down and the next day Kaga and Soryu followed.
At least Wasp went down the third day as well (I cursed a sub that killed Wasps escort the day before but now I am happy it did not waste its torps for the big hulk). If only Hornet would follow as well......

And indeed, this endangers my auto-victory in '43, as the score is now 30k-8.5k (lacking ~4k on my side). However, in China things go quite well and the last three cities and several 100k troops might push the score back in my direction...

Edit:
Day four after the mighty battle:
Not all the gods of war must be against me, but all the praise has to go to LCDR A. Fuji and the crew of I-9, putting two 21" fishes into the limping Hornet , making her disapear from the seas.
An extra bottle of Sake for each member of the crew , and a personal meeting with the emporer for the commander .


One more question: I have all these fragments of the carrier airgroups. I switched their HQ (was Home Defense) and moved them to Rabaul and Truk for replenishment, once the carriers sink with the command section of the airgroups.
Unfortunatly they seem to stay just fragments - do I have to do something especial, to make them become the main section of the airgroup, thus rebuilding the groups around them? Or was it a bad idea to switch the HQ before the CVs (and with them the lead section) went down?

[WhoCares]

Just a final little bump, because my question about the airgroup fragments might have been overseen by the edit:
all carriers are long down, taking the main units with them but I am still stuck with the fragments not switching and thus not accepting replacements. Do I have to Disband/Withdraw them or is there any other voodoo I could try?

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

any hinds to avoid the high ops losses to my Zeros

Zero is your main fighter and has the longest range, but those op losses are awy too high.
Try the following:
- Stay inside your normal range (8 hexes for A6M2)
- Rest your pilots, rotate Daitais (one flying missions, other on standby or low CAP 10-20%). I rarely send them on offensive missions if their fatigue is more than 10, unless there are enemy CVs around.
- Upgrade your airfields to at least level 2 (required for fighter planes to fly withour ops penalty)
- Try not to put more than 50*airfield size planes in a base (so for size 4 airfield less than 200, for size 6 less than 300...)
- When flying missions from CV more than 2 hexes away you suffer more ops losses (so use your land based Zeros for LR CAP whenever possible)

From your posts I see that you are using PI bombing for training your pilots. If you use 20-35 exp pilots for ground bombardment in order to make them more experienced you will have to accept ops losses at level of 1-3% of all planes that flew almost every day...

Having air HQ and enough AV support will not reduce ops losses, but will help you to put more aircraft in the air for each attack.