Effectiveness of ASW air patrol

[madmickey]

What are people opinion on the effectiveness of ASW air patrol.

[bradfordkay]

I don't know what the majority opinion is, but in my latest game, which has only reached Feb 4, '42, my units have sunk six Japanese subs. Three were sunk by depth charges, two by 250lb bombs and one by 500lb bombs. Thus it looks to me like ASW air is even more effective than it was in UV (where it seemed to keep the enemy subs at bay, but never got a confirmed kill that I can recall).

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I don't know what the majority opinion is, but in my latest game, which has only reached Feb 4, '42, my units have sunk six Japanese subs. Three were sunk by depth charges, two by 250lb bombs and one by 500lb bombs. Thus it looks to me like ASW air is even more effective than it was in UV (where it seemed to keep the enemy subs at bay, but never got a confirmed kill that I can recall).

Hope my new start is more like yours, Brad. Six months into my last one ASW A/C
had yet to sink a single sub and the Japs were getting so bold they were stationing
subs in borts the ACW A/C were flying out of. It was annoying to say the least.

[Mr.Frag]

What skill level are your ASW boys Mike?

[2ndACR]

As the Japanese, I have yet to have a ASW a/c hit an allied sub.

I did have a bunch of Vals on regular naval search pound the snot out of a bunch of Ron's subs. Not sure how that happened. Have not seen it occur since.

[dtravel]

Playing as the Allies against the AI, I have yet to see any aircraft on ASW patrol attack a single sub let alone sink one. And some of these PBY units have experiences up in the 80s now since they've been on patrol constantly for almost a year now. I have had a PBY on Naval Search attack a sub (missed) which is really confusing.

[String]

Indeed, i've had the same experience from my PBEM playing the japanese. No attacks on subs by ASW aircraft, but when set at 1000 feet naval search the attacks were quite frequent. Especially effective were the kido butai's Val's who sank three or four subs off Kwajalein in three days..

[McSeem]

I never see hits from a/c with torpedo as main load (e.g. Catalina, Betty or Avenger) ... many messages about attacks but never about hits. At the same time bomb carrying a/c attacking sub successfully [&:]

[WhoCares]

As Japan, I see more attacks by my ASF TFs as by airgroups on ASW mission.
The allied AI tends to always keep about three or four subs between Takao/Formosa and Aparri/Luzon. And I run ASW air missions from Takao, Aparri and Batan Is., mostly seaplanes (e.g. Petes on Batan Is.), but also Vals (partially also from Batan Is.) and others, approx. 30+ planes. At the same time I run two to four ASW TFs ( ~6 ships each, 1DD + MSWs, PGs, and PCs) in circles around Batan Is.
My impression, ~1:1 ratio in detections, but maybe 4:1 (sea vs. air) in attacks and reported hits [:(]

[Richelieu]

As japan vs AI,
My campaign is now July 43, thus about 1,5 year of game time.
Since the beginning, I have always seen the US submarine as one of my first priorities,
affecting nearly all my seaplanes (Jake, Petes, Alf and Emily) on ASW duty at 1000 feet.

My seaplanes are heped by some Betty Datais (at Takao and Rabaul) and by some
Sonia, Val and Kate (at Bataan, Laoag, Okinawa, Takao...) all on ASW patrol.

I have at least 5 DD / PC task forces (of about 5-6 ships each) patrolling all the time
around Formosa on ASW duty...

After 1,5 year, I have sunk about 30-35 allied submarines, all with Depth charges but
three which were sunk by bombs (60 to 250 Kg) as attested by my Intelligence Panel.
I must conclude that A/C are useless to sink submarines, but I think they are effective
to detect and pertub ennemy submarine activity.
In fact, US submarines have done little damage to my fleet up today...

[wild_Willie2]

AT least that ratio, put ALL of my Ki21, ki42 and ki48 squadrons in Takao for about a month after the capture of bataan, and they sighted and attacked subs every day, but only 1-6 to 8 there was actually a HIT (but with 300 bombers in Takao on naval search and ASW patrol) even 1/6 is much

sunk about 10 subs there with 250 KG AP.

Also put al my float plane squadrons in Takao, but their 30 KG bombs do not make much of an impression on allied subs [:@]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

What skill level are your ASW boys Mike?

Don't really remember..., but they had been flying ASW missions for the majority
of the Game, so they should have been getting at least compatent at it. My op-
ponant later informed me that they had gotten a few hits and chased him away
from time to time---but from my side it appeared as a whole lot of nothing.

[Mr.Frag]

What alt Mike? lower = more bombs dropped at the price of higher operational losses and flak losses.

[Wilhammer]

I am late into the war, but not now at the PC I play on.

I am the IJN, it is October 1943.

My greatest fear is american Subs - so from the beginning I transferred Float Planes and Lillies on ASW patrol; the vast majority in the Formosa / Batan / North Phillipines back to the Home Islands.

Allied subs have gotten much better - they tend to hit and kill when they attempt to sub attack.

I see the messages scroll across the bottom, and notice in the air phase that a lot of Allied subs do get attacked, but the hit rate is very low.

Attacks on my shipping are at a very low rate, relative to the subs I keep spotting and attacking.

The overall effect of ASW Air is suppression.

A great benefit of ASW air support is the low risk to the aircraft and the gain in Experience points.

I place my damaged bomber units, and newbies, in the region on ASW patrol while they refit and get some experience.

I put them at 6,000 feet or 1,000 feet. At 1,000 feet, I do get more hits, but I do get a bit of flak from the subs.

From 6,000 feet I feel I get more spotting of subs.

In conjunction with ASW air, I do supplement with ASW TFS, but the Allied subs are slaughtering them. The Allies seem to very good at seeking escorts at times.


I'll have to try the 1000 foot Naval Search method to attack subs.

It is not unusual to have subs spotted as APs in the game's FOW, so it does make sense that the spotting plane would attack it as it is 'coded' as a surface target, and thus hit as one.

It still gets the hit.

It might even be more effective than 1,000 foot ASW as the range os ASW ops would double for the A/C in question....

hmmm... will have to test.

[stretch]

As the allies at Feb 1, 42 I haven't seen a single air attack on an enemy sub (for either side). What kind of experience levels do I need to get attacks? Any other tips that would help? I've tried catalinas and hudsons on ASW and on Naval at 100 ft and 500ft and other higher altitudes. I am getting a few detections but never any attacks.

[byron13]

I'm flying ASW with PBYs at either 2000' or 3000'. I only play the AI, and I've noticed that I've gotten many fewer attacks and hits under the present game (1.4) than I did in a previous game in 1.2 or 1.3. Even in the black hole off Townsville, I only recall one or two attacks in my current game. I'm also noticing that the AI is doing a much better job of interdicting routes near the front by putting subs in the dead zones of my coverage. Finally, even with some relatively high experience PBYs, I am also not spotting subs at the fringes (assuming sub patrol is half the radius of naval search), so I'm having to escort most convoys near the front - which I like.

[Montrose]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

As the Japanese, I have yet to have a ASW a/c hit an allied sub.

I did have a bunch of Vals on regular naval search pound the snot out of a bunch of Ron's subs. Not sure how that happened. Have not seen it occur since.

Aha! I have the exact same thing going on in 1.40 a game against the AI. I have hundreds of aircraft of varying kinds doing variations on Naval Search & ASW missions flying out of Takao, Appari and some floatplanes on Batan I. The idea is that I choke the relatively narrow seas between Takao and the Phillipines and try to hurt any allied subs transgressing. Unfortunately 90% of them are ineffective.

However, among the squadrons operating is the below squadron of nine Vals, and they are uber-antisub machines. They seem to conduct the attacks 75% of the time which considering their tiny numbers is remarkable. They are also very effective. I checked, and while their 250kg bomb doesn't usually sink a sub outright with one hit, they have damaged probably at least a dozen and killed two as well.

So my advice to Japanese players is to use Vals on Naval Search as below. They rock, even in small numbers, and have so suprised me at their effectivness that I had to post when I saw 2nd ACRs comment. I never thought that a Val would be a far more effective ASW weapon than the bigger bombers and patrol planes.

[2ndACR]

Set the Vals on ASW search and they will not attack anything really. Yet on Naval search they pound the crud out of subs.

I can not figure it out.

[denisonh]

I have seen the same thing with my PBYs and Coronados, as it seems those on naval search hit subs more than those on ASW. I have a PBY sqn on naval search and an SBD on ASW sqdn on the same island: the PBYs get spots and hits and nothing from the SBDs, even with an IJN sub camped out in the same hex.

[dtravel]

Its almost like anti-sub was originally going to be part of Naval Search, then 2by3 deceided to make it a separate mission but for some reason didn't finish the program changes to do so.