Hi, I found these and thought of you. I know you'll like them.
The line separating painfully bad analogies from weirdly good ones is as thin as a soup made from the shadow of a chicken that was starved to death by Abraham Lincoln. Here are some fine examples:
The young fighter had a hungry look, the kind you get from not eating for a while.
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck, either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
Her artistic sense was exquisitely refined, like someone who can tell butter from I Can't Believe It's Not Butter.
She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes just before it throws up.
It came down the stairs looking very much like something no one had ever seen before.
The knife was as sharp as the tone used by Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Tex.) in her first several points of parliamentary procedure made to Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Ill.) in the House Judiciary Committee hearings on the impeachment of President William Jefferson Clinton.
The dandelion swayed in the gentle breeze like an oscillating electric fan set on medium.
Her lips were red and full, like tubes of blood drawn by an inattentive phlebotomist.
He felt like he was being hunted down like a dog, in a place that hunts dogs, I suppose.
The lamp just sat there, like an inanimate object.
You know how in "Rocky" he prepares for the fight by punching sides of raw beef? Well, yesterday it was as cold as that meat locker he was in.
He was deeply in love. When she spoke, he thought he heard bells, as if she were a garbage truck backing up.
Her eyes were like limpid pools, only they had forgotten to put in any PH cleanser.
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room- temperature beef.
Her pants fit her like a glove, well, maybe more like a mitten, actually.
She walked into my office like a centipede with 98 missing legs.
It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to the wall.
Her voice had that tense, grating quality, like a first-generation thermal paper fax machine that needed a band tightened.
A branch fell from the tree like a trunk falling off an elephant.
The painting was very Escher-like, as if Escher had painted an exact copy of an Escher painting.
Fishing is like waiting for something that does not happen very often.
They were as good friends as the people on "Friends."
He was as bald as one of the Three Stooges, either Curly or Larry, you know, the one who goes woo woo woo.
The sardines were packed as tight as the coach section of a 747.
Her eyes were shining like two marbles that someone dropped in mucus and then held up to catch the light.
The sunset displayed rich, spectacular hues like a .jpeg file at 10 percent cyan, 10 percent magenta, 60 percent yellow and 10 percent black.
For Pasternaski
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
For Pasternaski
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
-
captskillet
- Posts: 2493
- Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:21 pm
- Location: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
RE: For Pasternaski
How about....she walked into my office and pulled out a pair of 38's, then she stuck a gun in my face [:D]!!!!!
"Git thar fust with the most men" - Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest
My Cat Story
Hi, I need someone to correct this for me.
That **** Cat
Not once in over 100 games did that cat ever beat me at chess? (I was a little drunk during the draws) and that cat used to show up at the 'Stein Club' around 0130 and try to take advantage of me. He then would follow me home and try to steal my beer.
He had no tail and no meow, (He was a cat mime) was all black (except for a white patch on his neck and one white front paw)
No one else ever saw him. He used to climb on top of me when I was sleeping and make strange noises (he used a ball of tin foil) till I woke up and then he would just stare at me like I was supposed to read his mind.
I could never get him to stop playing the 'Grob' against me when he had the white pieces. Over and Over and Over the same moves. I of course pulled out all stops when I had the white pieces. He was good at the French defense, but was a pussy if I used the Sicilian Dragon (another opening where he made the same moves repeatedly)
Finally when he figured out he could not win with skill he started developing annoying habits during a game. He would reach out as if he was going to move a piece but then pull his paw back and stare at me. Stick the paw out and pull it back and stare at me. Like watching paint dry. During my move he would commence licking body parts one should refrain from licking while engaged in a game of chess and then of course he would stare at me some more only now he would have a smile.
Scratching the table, have I mentioned scratching the table? Do you know how annoying your opponent suddenly going into a scratching frenzy just when you are contemplating a queen sac is?
Drooling, Drooling should be in the rules as a violation of the game. Wet pieces are not fun to play with (not to mention how hard it is to keep notation on a soggy notepad) In hopeless positions he would just sit there...refusing to resign and refusing to move I think he felt losing on time was better then admitting defeat. (he always pretended to be suprised when his flag fell and acted like the clock had saved me from his next move that would have reversed everything and revealed his true chess genius (but if I pretended to fall alseep I could sometimes trick him into moving-he wanted to have me stay asleep and lose on time the dirty sneak)
Well to put an end to this story one night about 0130 I was deep into several pitchers of beer playing several differnet games of chess at once (for beer of course) and I did not see when he came in and when I reached his board for my move he hid under the table I moved and went on to next board. Every time I came back he had moved a piece (he did not play the 'Grob' for this one time. Instead he was going for the Kings Indian Attack) Getting close to closing time I still had never seen who I was playing (the board was a locked up close center with lots of behind the lines reshuffing) I got to the board and he had moved his last move back to the square it had came from, the move I had made was based on this last move so I put my piece back, (I was drunk and in a hurry) after three such times as soon as I made my move he lept out from under the table and stood right in the middle of the board and reared up on his hind legs (like a lion on a coat of arms) He was over joyed he had just gotten a draw by three fold repititon and acted like he just beat Karpov (this was back before Kasparov and Deep Big Blue whatever)
Now that I think about it, I miss that **** cat
One night I was headed for the Stein Club after seeing a Braves game at Fulton County Stadium.
Bobby Horner had hit three homer's but the Braves had still managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
Is was hot, July or August and I was slightly on the wobbly side from the effect of the beer. I always had a beer for every run the Braves scored during a game, Thirteen is a lot of beer in two hours (and yes they scored thirteen runs and lost). But traditions not up held soon lose their value as tradition so there I was wobbling my way down Peachtree Street somewhere in the vincity of midnight and morning
The Stein Club was closed by the time I found what city it had moved to. So now I was going to find that place I slept at. Phew it was twenty blocks further and I had gotten thirsty again. There he was sitting in the window of the Stein Club. I had not seen hide nor hair of him in over a month. Not since the night I had put an empty pitcher over his head and watched him crash around the bar for five minutes before it came off Why would I do such a thing you might ask? OK I'll tell you why, The little rascal had nicked a knight from a neighboring game without me noticing it. And when it was my turn and I did my look see I found suddenly I was in quite the bind and in danger of dropping a piece to a combo I had not seen coming. There he sat with that 'I just licked my you know what and your screwed' smile of his. To say I was annoyed would be to entirely understate my mood. It developed that he had a passed pawn and he sac'd his bogus knight to promote it. **** Cat had miscounted the moves however and he missed the part where he was mated the turn he promoted
I was in good sprits and prepared to forgive him the anxious moments he had cost me. That is until the folks at the next table noticed their missing knight and saw it on my table next to me.... After that cleared away I grabbed the pitcher and stuck it over his head before I thought about it. Now understand I had never hit, kicked or abused this cat and only rarely swore out loud at him and he expressed quite a bit of indignation at the precedence I had just established. After the offending pitcher was removed he glared at me for a few long moments and then departed in a huff
So I was slightly suprised to find him sitting in the window of the Stein Club at the hour the early morning chill was coming out to say hello. I did not acknowledge him then but simply started for home. He fell in behind me. It is a strange fact but a person can grow used to someone or something even things or people that really get on your nerves. After a while you miss them when their gone. Even against your will or better judgment. So I found I was rather happy to see him after all. It was several blocks before I looked back and noticed he was limping badly but still keeping up. I stopped and knelt down for a look. He was a wreck. Never a dirty cat he was matted and sooty and for the first time I detected the fact he smelled like a garbage can. He was cut and battered had parts missing from one ear his nose had a slit running for several inches and his right eye was swollen shut. I had never before picked up this cat. He never acted like that was acceptable conduct on my part. He was not a lap or petting cat. It is true he liked to sleep on top of me, but it was not required I pet him. In fact he always waited for me to go to sleep before getting on me. In the winter time I often woke up and there he was under the blanket with his head on the pillow snoring well snoring and purring.
While he had no meow he made up for it with snoring and purring. Two beers and he would begin purring uncontrollably for hours. He had no interest in playing with yarn or string or balls except of course his ball. His ball of tin foil that he was never without. It was the size of a golf ball wadded tight and hard. If you threw this ball he would go after it without delay. If I had went to the middle of the Chattahoochi Bridge and thrown it over the side he would have followed after it. If I had thrown it on a railroad track while an express train was passing over it he would have went after it. And there it was in his bleeding mouth. Slightly battered and frayed but no where near as bad as he. So I picked him up just to save myself the guilt of him limping after me He started purring that instant. I stumbled on my foggy way toward home. His breathing sounded like an old set of bag pipes that had not quite finished the last note it would sound before fading into silence forever. I was actually worried he was on the verge of using one of a cats nine lives and I was not certain the amount of them he had left Knowing him as I did I knew whatever had happened to him. He no doubt asked for it. Could have avoided it. But rather chose to suffer it then take an alternate course that required he change his ways.
By dawn we were home and I put him on the bed. He went to sleep and I did too. Many hours later I woke up to the loud purring and snoring and weight of a cat on my chestI woke him up and we ate. Then I gave him a bath. He submitted tamely and without a fuss and when it was over sat on the mantelpiece and performed that ritual all cats must do of licking every part of their anatomy they can reach. When this was completed he leapt from the mantel to the bed curled up and went to sleep. I had tickets to the ball game. Back then Fulton County Stadium was not like your average ballpark. It was quite common in those days to have a seat where your closest neighbor was further away then Dale Murphy could hit a baseball. Channel 17 was not yet a 'super' station and the Braves were a dozen years from becoming Americas team. cough cough. To give the appearance of attendance Ted Turner him self used to wander around handing out free tickets. They were good seats too right behind home plate, right where the TV cameras would show the world people really did go to ball games in Atlanta. Now I don't like to miss any part of a game. Not a ball not a foul so to avoid this possibly I purchase enough beer to last a while (provided the Braves don't go on a scoring rampage like the prior night when I logged more miles then Marco Polo just fetching beer) So around seven o five I was firmly in place in my seat twenty rows up right behind home plate. Six cups of beer arrayed around the chair in easy to reach well thought out locations. A monster box of popcorn and it was 'play ball' time. The game progressed, now the third inning. Phil (Knucksie) Niekro got them out 1-2-3 and I reached for a beer........fur? Someone put fur in my beer. I look down and there's that **** cat. His head is 8 inches inside a 10 inch cup and he is slurping the bottom. Wait my word the cup beside it is already empty. In the time it took for a 1-2-3 inning he had sucked down two full monster ball park (this was the 70's) cups of beer. Admiration and anger competed for control of my emotions. Lucky cat admiration won. I snatched the surviving beer from certain cat slurppdom and everything was fine. (Niekro was pitching great the knuckle ball was floating like the butterfly and the Braves led 2-0) So it was not too difficult to forgive an old friend While I wondered just how he had gotten all the way to Fulton County Stadium the cat picked up his ball of tin foil and hopped up into the seat beside me. There was no one in my row or for several rows (Ted was generous but those lower seats were the few seats that usually had sitters who actually paid to sit in them While everything would have been fine except....What was I saying about Niekros knukleball Oh yes it was Willie Stargell who had said of it "moves like a butterfly with hic ups" The cat now had the hic ups. I ignored it for a spell. Every time I looked over he would look back at me and hic up. He really for once looked sorry. Perhaps it was just embarrassment but. I really was getting a bit beerized and it struck me as slightly funny. Still one does not laugh at ones friends misery. So I moved him to my lap and started to pat him on the back trying to clear his hic ups. They came at an accelerated rate. Then at last they slowed and ceased. The cat looked up. Looked around. And wham over my head he flew and scampered up the aisle and into the dark corridors of deserted Fulton County Stadium. Did I say deserted? I looked up an saw that every one in the seats below me had turned around and was staring at me. The ball players on the field had stopped playing and were all looking up at the giant TV screen. You know the one they show the replay on and sometimes put a camera on a person in the stands. The one everyone watching the game on TV sees. Yes, that one.
Then I realized the camera had caught me sitting there with my hand going up and down on my lap. And that strange face I had assumed while trying to help the hic ups depart that **** cat.
My ears were still on fire several hours later when I entered my beloved Stein Club.... A place where if the world was ending and a Braves game was being shown on TV (and Ted knew better then to black out a game, one way or another you were going to see the Braves) The Braves would be on TV at the Stein Club.
The hoots, the shrieks, the laughing.
24 years have past.
I take the by pass around Atlanta now. (I take the by pass around Georgia now) Still I hear the up roar and on still nights my ears will burn and the hooting still echo like the soft little beeps you get during a hearing test only not peep beep or tweet but hoot hoot HOOT But I do miss that **** cat
That **** Cat
Not once in over 100 games did that cat ever beat me at chess? (I was a little drunk during the draws) and that cat used to show up at the 'Stein Club' around 0130 and try to take advantage of me. He then would follow me home and try to steal my beer.
He had no tail and no meow, (He was a cat mime) was all black (except for a white patch on his neck and one white front paw)
No one else ever saw him. He used to climb on top of me when I was sleeping and make strange noises (he used a ball of tin foil) till I woke up and then he would just stare at me like I was supposed to read his mind.
I could never get him to stop playing the 'Grob' against me when he had the white pieces. Over and Over and Over the same moves. I of course pulled out all stops when I had the white pieces. He was good at the French defense, but was a pussy if I used the Sicilian Dragon (another opening where he made the same moves repeatedly)
Finally when he figured out he could not win with skill he started developing annoying habits during a game. He would reach out as if he was going to move a piece but then pull his paw back and stare at me. Stick the paw out and pull it back and stare at me. Like watching paint dry. During my move he would commence licking body parts one should refrain from licking while engaged in a game of chess and then of course he would stare at me some more only now he would have a smile.
Scratching the table, have I mentioned scratching the table? Do you know how annoying your opponent suddenly going into a scratching frenzy just when you are contemplating a queen sac is?
Drooling, Drooling should be in the rules as a violation of the game. Wet pieces are not fun to play with (not to mention how hard it is to keep notation on a soggy notepad) In hopeless positions he would just sit there...refusing to resign and refusing to move I think he felt losing on time was better then admitting defeat. (he always pretended to be suprised when his flag fell and acted like the clock had saved me from his next move that would have reversed everything and revealed his true chess genius (but if I pretended to fall alseep I could sometimes trick him into moving-he wanted to have me stay asleep and lose on time the dirty sneak)
Well to put an end to this story one night about 0130 I was deep into several pitchers of beer playing several differnet games of chess at once (for beer of course) and I did not see when he came in and when I reached his board for my move he hid under the table I moved and went on to next board. Every time I came back he had moved a piece (he did not play the 'Grob' for this one time. Instead he was going for the Kings Indian Attack) Getting close to closing time I still had never seen who I was playing (the board was a locked up close center with lots of behind the lines reshuffing) I got to the board and he had moved his last move back to the square it had came from, the move I had made was based on this last move so I put my piece back, (I was drunk and in a hurry) after three such times as soon as I made my move he lept out from under the table and stood right in the middle of the board and reared up on his hind legs (like a lion on a coat of arms) He was over joyed he had just gotten a draw by three fold repititon and acted like he just beat Karpov (this was back before Kasparov and Deep Big Blue whatever)
Now that I think about it, I miss that **** cat
One night I was headed for the Stein Club after seeing a Braves game at Fulton County Stadium.
Bobby Horner had hit three homer's but the Braves had still managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
Is was hot, July or August and I was slightly on the wobbly side from the effect of the beer. I always had a beer for every run the Braves scored during a game, Thirteen is a lot of beer in two hours (and yes they scored thirteen runs and lost). But traditions not up held soon lose their value as tradition so there I was wobbling my way down Peachtree Street somewhere in the vincity of midnight and morning
The Stein Club was closed by the time I found what city it had moved to. So now I was going to find that place I slept at. Phew it was twenty blocks further and I had gotten thirsty again. There he was sitting in the window of the Stein Club. I had not seen hide nor hair of him in over a month. Not since the night I had put an empty pitcher over his head and watched him crash around the bar for five minutes before it came off Why would I do such a thing you might ask? OK I'll tell you why, The little rascal had nicked a knight from a neighboring game without me noticing it. And when it was my turn and I did my look see I found suddenly I was in quite the bind and in danger of dropping a piece to a combo I had not seen coming. There he sat with that 'I just licked my you know what and your screwed' smile of his. To say I was annoyed would be to entirely understate my mood. It developed that he had a passed pawn and he sac'd his bogus knight to promote it. **** Cat had miscounted the moves however and he missed the part where he was mated the turn he promoted
I was in good sprits and prepared to forgive him the anxious moments he had cost me. That is until the folks at the next table noticed their missing knight and saw it on my table next to me.... After that cleared away I grabbed the pitcher and stuck it over his head before I thought about it. Now understand I had never hit, kicked or abused this cat and only rarely swore out loud at him and he expressed quite a bit of indignation at the precedence I had just established. After the offending pitcher was removed he glared at me for a few long moments and then departed in a huff
So I was slightly suprised to find him sitting in the window of the Stein Club at the hour the early morning chill was coming out to say hello. I did not acknowledge him then but simply started for home. He fell in behind me. It is a strange fact but a person can grow used to someone or something even things or people that really get on your nerves. After a while you miss them when their gone. Even against your will or better judgment. So I found I was rather happy to see him after all. It was several blocks before I looked back and noticed he was limping badly but still keeping up. I stopped and knelt down for a look. He was a wreck. Never a dirty cat he was matted and sooty and for the first time I detected the fact he smelled like a garbage can. He was cut and battered had parts missing from one ear his nose had a slit running for several inches and his right eye was swollen shut. I had never before picked up this cat. He never acted like that was acceptable conduct on my part. He was not a lap or petting cat. It is true he liked to sleep on top of me, but it was not required I pet him. In fact he always waited for me to go to sleep before getting on me. In the winter time I often woke up and there he was under the blanket with his head on the pillow snoring well snoring and purring.
While he had no meow he made up for it with snoring and purring. Two beers and he would begin purring uncontrollably for hours. He had no interest in playing with yarn or string or balls except of course his ball. His ball of tin foil that he was never without. It was the size of a golf ball wadded tight and hard. If you threw this ball he would go after it without delay. If I had went to the middle of the Chattahoochi Bridge and thrown it over the side he would have followed after it. If I had thrown it on a railroad track while an express train was passing over it he would have went after it. And there it was in his bleeding mouth. Slightly battered and frayed but no where near as bad as he. So I picked him up just to save myself the guilt of him limping after me He started purring that instant. I stumbled on my foggy way toward home. His breathing sounded like an old set of bag pipes that had not quite finished the last note it would sound before fading into silence forever. I was actually worried he was on the verge of using one of a cats nine lives and I was not certain the amount of them he had left Knowing him as I did I knew whatever had happened to him. He no doubt asked for it. Could have avoided it. But rather chose to suffer it then take an alternate course that required he change his ways.
By dawn we were home and I put him on the bed. He went to sleep and I did too. Many hours later I woke up to the loud purring and snoring and weight of a cat on my chestI woke him up and we ate. Then I gave him a bath. He submitted tamely and without a fuss and when it was over sat on the mantelpiece and performed that ritual all cats must do of licking every part of their anatomy they can reach. When this was completed he leapt from the mantel to the bed curled up and went to sleep. I had tickets to the ball game. Back then Fulton County Stadium was not like your average ballpark. It was quite common in those days to have a seat where your closest neighbor was further away then Dale Murphy could hit a baseball. Channel 17 was not yet a 'super' station and the Braves were a dozen years from becoming Americas team. cough cough. To give the appearance of attendance Ted Turner him self used to wander around handing out free tickets. They were good seats too right behind home plate, right where the TV cameras would show the world people really did go to ball games in Atlanta. Now I don't like to miss any part of a game. Not a ball not a foul so to avoid this possibly I purchase enough beer to last a while (provided the Braves don't go on a scoring rampage like the prior night when I logged more miles then Marco Polo just fetching beer) So around seven o five I was firmly in place in my seat twenty rows up right behind home plate. Six cups of beer arrayed around the chair in easy to reach well thought out locations. A monster box of popcorn and it was 'play ball' time. The game progressed, now the third inning. Phil (Knucksie) Niekro got them out 1-2-3 and I reached for a beer........fur? Someone put fur in my beer. I look down and there's that **** cat. His head is 8 inches inside a 10 inch cup and he is slurping the bottom. Wait my word the cup beside it is already empty. In the time it took for a 1-2-3 inning he had sucked down two full monster ball park (this was the 70's) cups of beer. Admiration and anger competed for control of my emotions. Lucky cat admiration won. I snatched the surviving beer from certain cat slurppdom and everything was fine. (Niekro was pitching great the knuckle ball was floating like the butterfly and the Braves led 2-0) So it was not too difficult to forgive an old friend While I wondered just how he had gotten all the way to Fulton County Stadium the cat picked up his ball of tin foil and hopped up into the seat beside me. There was no one in my row or for several rows (Ted was generous but those lower seats were the few seats that usually had sitters who actually paid to sit in them While everything would have been fine except....What was I saying about Niekros knukleball Oh yes it was Willie Stargell who had said of it "moves like a butterfly with hic ups" The cat now had the hic ups. I ignored it for a spell. Every time I looked over he would look back at me and hic up. He really for once looked sorry. Perhaps it was just embarrassment but. I really was getting a bit beerized and it struck me as slightly funny. Still one does not laugh at ones friends misery. So I moved him to my lap and started to pat him on the back trying to clear his hic ups. They came at an accelerated rate. Then at last they slowed and ceased. The cat looked up. Looked around. And wham over my head he flew and scampered up the aisle and into the dark corridors of deserted Fulton County Stadium. Did I say deserted? I looked up an saw that every one in the seats below me had turned around and was staring at me. The ball players on the field had stopped playing and were all looking up at the giant TV screen. You know the one they show the replay on and sometimes put a camera on a person in the stands. The one everyone watching the game on TV sees. Yes, that one.
Then I realized the camera had caught me sitting there with my hand going up and down on my lap. And that strange face I had assumed while trying to help the hic ups depart that **** cat.
My ears were still on fire several hours later when I entered my beloved Stein Club.... A place where if the world was ending and a Braves game was being shown on TV (and Ted knew better then to black out a game, one way or another you were going to see the Braves) The Braves would be on TV at the Stein Club.
The hoots, the shrieks, the laughing.
24 years have past.
I take the by pass around Atlanta now. (I take the by pass around Georgia now) Still I hear the up roar and on still nights my ears will burn and the hooting still echo like the soft little beeps you get during a hearing test only not peep beep or tweet but hoot hoot HOOT But I do miss that **** cat
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Mogami
Hi, Can you tell I am out of PBEM turns to run?
I had a cat I used for my story.
In 1978 I was in Rochester NY. I lived in a house with 4 other wargamers and when we were not working we were always playing wargames. (boardgames)
One of the guys had a cat and she had kittens.
Another buddy picked out a orange cat and named him "Ajax" because he loved the RN crusier.
I happened to look in the box just as Ajax took a swipe at a little black cat with no tail. The black cat swung back but hit an innocent sibbling So I named him Mogami (because of Suda Strait)
I ended up keeping him. When I rode my motorcycle back to Ohio the cat stayed inside my jacket all the way.
He really did like beer and have a ball of tin foil he would chase. (but he didn't play chess
and other people could see him)
I went back into the service and my sister took him over.
She was transfered to Hawaii (she was in the Army I was on a ship in the Navy)
He caught cat leukima in quarintine and died.
When I first got onto the internet I had to pick a screen name and used Mogami. I have used it ever since.
I do miss that cat.
I had a cat I used for my story.
In 1978 I was in Rochester NY. I lived in a house with 4 other wargamers and when we were not working we were always playing wargames. (boardgames)
One of the guys had a cat and she had kittens.
Another buddy picked out a orange cat and named him "Ajax" because he loved the RN crusier.
I happened to look in the box just as Ajax took a swipe at a little black cat with no tail. The black cat swung back but hit an innocent sibbling So I named him Mogami (because of Suda Strait)
I ended up keeping him. When I rode my motorcycle back to Ohio the cat stayed inside my jacket all the way.
He really did like beer and have a ball of tin foil he would chase. (but he didn't play chess
and other people could see him)
I went back into the service and my sister took him over.
She was transfered to Hawaii (she was in the Army I was on a ship in the Navy)
He caught cat leukima in quarintine and died.
When I first got onto the internet I had to pick a screen name and used Mogami. I have used it ever since.
I do miss that cat.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
-
bigmed1204
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:35 am
- Location: Washington DC area
RE: Mogami
wow strangley enough i was just stationed in hawaii for 5 years. originally came from ohio too. air force though hehe. i'm bored too [>:]
RE: Mogami
Hi, I'm passing the time seeing how far back I can find posts in the forum. Some of them are really whacky to read now. Try the PacWar or Spwaw forums and go back to 2000.
Boy we were innocent back then when it came to making strategy for PacWar.
From 10-3-2000
Talking about PacWar AI I wrote
"all AI problems are solved by playing against a human!!!! Who here does not win every game with ethier side against AI? I just captured Pearl in April 42 as Japan. Frank Jack lost his life and 3 CV's at Midway (but sank my beloved Akagi)Adm Scott lost 3 BB's and a ton of other ships at Johnson Island (japan 35000pts allies 30000) and as US have captured Truk and all of New Guenia, Solomans, New Britain, Borneo in Sept 43 IJN has lost 15CV's 6BB 15CA 17CL 85dd 200+AP 300+mcs (japan 44000pts allies 75000) The AI gets boring after a while, why does it leave 200+ merchants in air range? why put a leader all by himself some where? I have captured 4 or 5 this game without units?. I want a human any side to play with!!! "
9-14-2000 (or why I started playing Steel Panthers)
"You wanna know what really drives me up the wall? No...well here it is any way. I have 6 carriers, with the mission of attack enemy task force, they locate enemy tasks force with 3 carriers and launch strikes.....at nearby island airbase, supply depot and get creamed when enemy carriers launch strike. Why do they not attack enemy carriers? Do I have to set mission to NI on carrier based planes? PS I am downloading SPWaW so I will be here for about 12 hours it looks like ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!"
My very first post concerning WITP In response to Mike Wood
"Well, do these new games we are working on sound interesting to any of you PacWar folk?"
1-8-2001
"Hi, I am against a limit based on anything other then programing limits. (Just make sure to also include how to refuel a large TF and where to anchor it) It is ok to reward players who keep small TF (leader bonus) and penalize those who "overstack". I believe in letting the player cut his own throat where ever possible, rather then limit them to only "historical" modes of play. This means all I want are the ships/planes/units/leaders/maps. If the US player does not want to attack PI so be it (but allow Japan enough freedom to then not garrision it as heavy) I want the players to "invent" the war as they go not relive the war. Large TF small TF there is a difference not only it combat ability but in where you can keep them. Try sending 100 combat ships (as Japan) to the outer limits of the empire and see what happens to them. Even if an airbase is built to hold 100 AC sometimes you just can't supply that many. So please include realistic logistics ect but leave out the politics ( I usally fire MacArthur and shoot him rather then listen to him) Please leave out any units not actually available. Everything I have read about this new game makes me want it. I really am looking forward to playing it online. (Not PBEM,.... well that too) ---"
After 1 year of Steel Panthers
1-30-2002
"Greetings, OK I am interested in finding out if anyone has been clobbered by the AI more often then I am. Everyone knows you have to go out of your way to get beat by the machine.
Previously the worst distaster I had was the 1 turn rout the AI inflicted on my Soviet Tank Bn
(I moved on AI's turn the Luftwaffe appeared and when they departed my entire force was ethier burning or running)
I have been playing around with paratroops lately. I started a WW2 long Camp. Core force was 4 companies of Itailian Paratroops, to which I added a MG and Flame sec per platoon and 1 81mm mortar per company. Battle one was a delay in Poland (I know ITai's were not really there) DV Bn lost 2 MG. Battle 2 was a meeting engagement. Transport planes were available so I loaded the BN and had enough support points for 2 Armoured cars and a recon group. 1 AC was assigned the northern VH area 1 to the center with the recon teams securing the southern. The BN would drop on the rear objective area on turn 2 and the battle would be over.
The transports overshot the LZ and the BN landed right in the midst of the Polish forces. By the time it was my turn
11 of 39 sqds were dead, 5 of 12 MG, 5 of 12 Flame sec, 3 of 12 ATR (20mm) and 4 of 4 mortars.
Of the remaining only 1 sqd rallied enough to gain movement and only 2 others enough to have shots (I refrained from firing) But the rear objective was taken. However the center AC was destroyed and that objective area occupied by Polish tanks and AC's. Back to the drawing board. "
My first post in the UV forum in response to Joel
"Would anyone like to make a guess at the amount of fuel that would be available to the IJN in the South Pacific during 1942 and 1943? We would like any info on fuel tonnage that was historically available, and what might have been available had the South Pacific been made the priority area for the entire IJN fleet. Any help would be appreciated. Currently in UV the only fuel restriction is getting the fuel shipped from Truk to the advance bases. Once the IJN fleet is committed to the campaign in 42, fuel becomes a key element for Japanese succes, but should it be limited? Joel "
[X(][X(][X(]
2-9-2002
"Hello I would check storage cap in places like Truk and Rabual then limit supply to Truk to whatever it could store (but unlimited access to more) then I would require Japan to move it to Rabual in game to limit of what it can store. I will return after I have procured some figures.
After some searching I am suprised to find Truk was not that good of a base. (excellent anchorage poor facilities. It seems the fuel storage was simply anchoring a tanker?) OK here is some data from a guy who believes oil avaibilty did have a impact on the South Pac operations.
Ship Fuel Usage at Cruising Speed (tons/hour)
Battleship 8 - 16
Fleet Aircraft Carrier 6.5 - 13
Light Carrier 3.5 - 6
Heavy Cruiser 3.5 - 5.5
Light Cruiser 1 - 2
Destroyer 1.5 - 2
...And Oil Next, let's examine Japan's situation with respect to petroleum production at this stage in the war. In the fourth quarter of 1942, Japanese oil production (which was almost entirely concentrated in her conquered territories, such as the Indies) was 1,194,000 tons. Of that, only 643,000 tons made it to Japan (which is where practically all the refineries were), the rest being either lost to attack, or consumed in the conquered territories. So roughly 214,000 tons of oil per month was making it to Japan. However, the Imperial Navy alone was consuming about 305,000 tons of heavy oil (in the form of fuel oil) per month by this stage in the war (Parillo, p. 237). Keep that figure in mind: 305,000 tons. Furthermore, by this time (October-November 1942) it must have been begining to become clear to the Japanese that the oilfields in Java and Sumatra were not going to be brought back into production at nearly the rate that pre-war estimates had counted on. The Dutch and their Allies had done a much more thorough job of demolition in the oilfields than the Japanese had hoped. This, coupled with the sinking of a transport filled with equipment and valuable refinery personnel, meant that Japanese efforts to get the production field back into production were doomed to be much slower than hoped by the Japanese military. The fact that the Imperial Navy had built up large stocks of petroleum before the was could not compensate for this sobering knowledge, especially given the high rate of fuel consumption thus far in the war. The week-long Battle of Midway alone had consumed more fuel than the Japanese Navy had ever used before in an entire year of peacetime operations (Willmott, "The Barrier and the Javelin"). With this in mind, let us examine what it took to fight effectively around Guadalcanal. Scenarios At this point, it's appropriate to construct some scenarios illustrating Japanese petroleum consumption during the Solomons campaign. Scenario One: 'The Bombardment' Redux On the night of October 13-14, the battleships Haruna and Kongo subjected Henderson Field to one of the most intense naval bombardments of the entire war. Without question, this was one of the more succesful naval forays the Japanese made into the waters of IronBottom Sound. When the Americans emerged the next morning, Henderson Field was wrecked, most of its aircraft destroyed, and much of the stock of aviation fuel gone up in smoke. Many Americans remember this as the most desperate phase of the entire battle. With Henderson temporarily out of action, the Marines could do little except watch helplessly as the Japanese landed troops further up the coast during the morning. Frantic searching managed to turn up enough fuel to get a few aircraft flying, but it seemed likely that the days were gone when Henderson Field could dominate the seas around Guadalcanal. The sense of American isolation at this time was quite acute, and had an immediate negative effect on American morale. But what was the cost to the Japanese in terms of their petroleum reserves? Let's examine this operation from a logistical standpoint. To perform the mission, the Japanese brought the two battleships (Haruna and Kongo), a light cruiser (Isuzu), and nine destroyers down from Rabaul. From Rabaul to Guadalcanal is approximately 650 miles as the crow flies. For our purposes, we'll call it 800 miles each way (to allow for geography, zig-zagging to avoid submarines, and so on). Japanese practice was to cruise down the Slot at normal cruising speed (call it 16 knots), and then dash in under cover of darkness. Thus, one might have a 'mission profile' looking something like this: 650 miles at 16 knots, and then a 150 mile dash in the late afternoon into the combat area at a speed of 25 knots. This would be followed by an hour-long bombardment, or naval combat, and then a similar dash back out so as to be well away from Henderson Field by morning. In addition, we will add in the fuel needed to maneuver at high speed for an additional hour, which will replicate a submarine scare, air attack, or similar combat event as the force cruises down The Slot. Base fuel consumption for these vessels is as follows:
Ship Tons of Oil Burned / Hour (16 kts.)
Kongo-class BB 9.25 (est.)
Isuzu-class CL 3 (est.)
DD 1.35 (est.)
For the purposes of our model (and throughout this essay) we will assume that fuel consumption will triple at 25 knots. In combat operations, fuel consumption will increase by a factor of five for the larger ships (cruisers and above), and by a factor of ten for destroyers. These are rough figures, but they serve to illustrate the point. When matched against the 'mission profile', fuel consumption looks as follows:
Event Speed Total Miles Traveled (nm) Total Hours Traveled Tons of Oil Burned/ Hour Total Tons of Oil Burned
Cruising Operations 16 knots 1300 81.25 34 2734
Run In/Out of IronBottom 25 knots 300 12 101 1211
Combat 30 knots 60 168 2 336
Totals - 1660 95 - 4,282 Thus, one 4-day mission consumes over 4,000 tons of oil. That equates to roughly 1.4% of Japan's total monthly consumption of 305,000 tons. 1.4% may not seem like a lot, but remember, that 305,000 tons has to power the entire Japanese Navy. That includes Combined Fleet, all of its combat units, all of it's submarines, all the training exercises, all the patrol boats out on routine operations, escorts for convoys: everything. And just wait, it gets worse...
Scenario Two: 'The Bombardment' Deluxe Next, let's take a look at another favorite scenario: Yamamoto gets serious and brings Yamato et. al. down from Truk to put Henderson Field out of business. In fact, Yamamoto purposed to do this at at least one point in the campaign, but was overruled by Imperial Headquarters (Agawa, "The Reluctant Admiral", pp. 328-329). The reason? Apparently, the fuel reserves at Kure, one of Japan's most important naval bases (and therefore presumably a bellwether for the supply situation of the Navy as a whole) had slipped to 65,000 tons. Navy consumption of fuel had recently topped 10,000 tons a day (which jibes nicely with the 305,000 tons/month figure I arrived at independently from other sources). This explicitly points to the importance of fuel in the Solomons campaign, and indicates that in this one instance at least the IJN could not afford to commit its heavy units because of fuel constraints. It should be noted, too, that In any case, had Yamamoto proceeded with such an operation, his task force would probably also have included Musashi, as well as the usual contingent of cruisers and DDs. I'm going to postulate a task force composed of Yamato, Musashi, four Myoko-class heavy cruisers, a Nagara-class light cruiser, and her attendant flotilla of, say, nine destroyers -- a powerful shore bombardment force with plenty of anti-surface power. Their individual fuel consumptions at 16 knots look like this Ship Tons of Oil Burned/ Hour
Yamato 14
Myoko-class CA 5
Nagara-class CL 3 (est.)
DD 1.35 (est.)
Of course, Truk is a lot further away from Guadalcanal than Rabaul: 1,400 miles one way. Again, I will tack on an additional 25% (for a total of 1,750 miles) to account for zig-zagging and all that. So, our mission profile will be: cruise at 16 knots for 1,600 miles, followed by a 150-mile run in at 25 knots, followed by the bombardment and the run back out, and then the cruise home. Again, we'll also assume an air attack on the task force, and some high-speed running around in IronBottom as well, for a total of 2 hours worth of high-speed maneuvering. The fuel consumption rates for this mission look like this:
Event Speed Miles Traveled (nm) Hours Traveled Tons of Oil Burned/ Hour Total Tons of Oil Burned
Totals - 3560 214 - 15,535
Again, knowing what we know about Japanese petroleum usage rates, we have just consumed 5.1% of the IJN's monthly allowance. Was it worth it? You'd better hope so, and you'd better be prepared to repeat the exercise, because airfields have a tendency to repair themselves. This points to one of the frustrating aspects of the Guadalcanal campaign from the Japanese perspective -- decisive results didn't seem to be achievable. Rather, the campaign was one of prolonged attrition. As Admiral Ugaki noted in his diary, "It's infuriating -- we shoot them down and we shoot them down, but they only send in more." (Agawa, p. 326). From a naval perspective this meant that a one-shot attack against Henderson was probably not going to get the job done. Rather, if the Japanese were truly committed to bombarding the island airfield out of business, they needed to be able to mount such operations on a sustained basis. It might take weeks of such activity before the airfield was either eliminated or captured by ground forces. Imperial Naval HQ's refusal to send Yamato and consorts on such a mission to IronBottom Sound may have been an admission of this fact. One such bombardment mission in isolation, while possible, wasn't going to be sufficient in and of itself to secure victory. And the fuel for committing heavy units to Guadalcanal, night after night, doesn't seem to have been available Scenario Three: The Tokyo Express By the mid-point of the Guadalcanal campaign, the only way the Japanese could get any troops or supplies into Guadalcanal was via destroyer -- the 'Tokyo Express.' Let's take a look at what it took to keep the Express running. Typically, the Express would consist of four to six destroyers acting as transports, and another pair acting as escorts, for a total of six to eight DDs. A typical 'transport' destroyer would be able to carry either 150-200 troops or 200 55-gallon drums worth of supplies. According to our standard 'mission profile', total fuel usage for an individual destroyer under such conditions would be 172 tons round trip. Thus, a 'typical' Tokyo Express run could be expected to consume roughly 1,374 tons of oil fuel. That's nearly 1.5 tons of oil per man or barrel (counting the amortized fuel for the 2 escort DDs) delivered to Tassafaronga Point! A ton and a half of oil, for a couple hundred pounds of rice, or one half-starved infantryman without heavy equipment, is a lamentable exchange by any standard. Such runs occurred as often as every three or four days. Postulate a month in which six large (6 'transports' + 2 escorts = 8 DDs) Express runs occurred, bringing in roughly 7,000 men or supply barrels. It takes about 8,250 tons of oil to get that done. Congratulations! You have just consumed roughly 2.7% of the Imperial Navy's monthly oil supply to put a scant regiment of troops (4000 guys) and their rice and miso soup (3,000 or so barrels worth) on Guadalcanal! That's a lot of oil, for very little in the way of credible logistical result, because of course destroyers were manifestly incapable of bringing in the sorts of heavy weapons and equipment which were necessary for the Japanese to eject the heavily dug-in Americans around Henderson Field Scenario Four: The Tokyo Express ad absurdum But in fact, by November 1942, the needs on Guadalcanal were much greater. The Japanese 17th Army's staff calculated its supply needs as being five destroyer loads per night, or 150 loads per month. Including, say, two escorts for each 5-load run (7 DDs total), that's 1,200 tons of oil per night, or more than 36,000 tons per month! And again, this doesn't begin to bring in the heavy equipment. To do that, 17th Army calculated that they would need 800 destroyer runs, as well as 20 runs from seaplane tenders. The destroyers alone (even if they had been available, which they were not) would have consumed 137,000+ tons of oil to do that job. Throw in the seaplane tenders (which were fuel hogs -- worse than a heavy cruiser), and the total fuel needed tops 150,000 tons, or nearly 50% of the IJN's monthly fuel allotment. When presented with 17th Army's plans, Yamamoto remarked that they were so unrealistic that success might be unattainable with such brains in charge of the Imperial Army's forces on Guadalcanal (Frank, p. 408). Clearly, the Tokyo Express was not getting the job done over the long haul. Conclusion The solution to Japan's dilemna, of course, was embodied in neither battleships nor the sleek destroyers of the Tokyo Express, but rather in the chunky hulls of humble cargo ships. 100 tons of fuel oil and a single decent-sized (12,000 ton deadweight) freighter will deliver a battalion of troops, and a good chunk of their supplies, too. Instead of the absurd number of destroyer loads outlined above, 17th Army's needs could have been met with 50 cargo-ship loads of troops and supplies. In fact, in terms of tonnage delivered for a given amount of oil burned, a cargo ship is something like 30 times as efficient as a destroyer. However, in order to use the plodding cargo vessels, the Japanese needed to neutralize American air power. Yet without the supplies and heavy weapons such ships could deliver, the Japanese ground forces were incapable of capturing the airfield. Quite a vicious Catch-22 indeed. This dilemna, coupled with the perceived need to hold Guadalcanal at all costs, led to an even more ominous strategic situation. Japan had started the war severely disadvantaged in the area of petroleum stocks. If the Japanese were to win, they would have to make a virtue of necessity and fight effectively 'on the cheap' against their larger, more powerful opponent. Japanese doctrine acknowledged this inferiority, and sought to remedy the situation with an emphasis on moral superiority, training, and the usage of powerfully armed light forces to compensate for its disadvantage in numbers of expensive, gas-guzzling capital ships. In the Japanese Army, extreme aggressiveness, forced marching, and bicycles, were seen as replacements for petroleum-powered motorized transport and armored forces. You will have to decide what percentage of the 214000ton per month supply is allowed for Southern Operations. Then you need to decide how and where and when it becomes available. It seems one lucky US sub sinking the right tanker between Truk and Rabaul could play a large role it deciding what the Japanese player can do. He may need to plan ahead and conserve fuel while he builds up an in theatre reserve before he can do any large scale sustained operations. "[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]
[X(] Did I really used to talk like that?
6-24-2003 Fuel again only now it's WITP
"Hi, Several points. Oil was not critical to Japan's industry. (Steel was the vital element there) Oil was critical to the Navy and Air Forces. (Had the Navy remained a coal burning force there would have been no war)(However aircraft in WITP/UV do not need fuel a serious problem)
It was not just the "oil" embargo that led to war it was the "no avation gas over 87 octane"
When the embargo began Japan had 43 million barrels of oil stockpiled (and had been attempting to corner the market of US av gas) The IJN consumed the stockpile at 1 million barrels per month. (So Japan had oil enough to last peace time rate of consumption almost 2 years.(since there were other consumers besides the IJN )Of course once the war began consumption rates went up considerably. (Dec 41 stockpile is around 39 million barrels (34 million barrels of fuel and 5 million barrels oil)(Japanese prewar estimate was they would reach crisis in mid-42 without NEI)
There is no synthetic oil production. By 1941 this plus Home Island Oil extraction programs produced enough for normal production per year. (But the increase in consumption brought by the military required a new secure source of oil (NEI)
The serious threat to Japan is not to oil production but to refining.
By damaging the refineries you force the Japanese to transport the "worthless" crude oil back to be refined. In the process the tankers become targets. Balikpapan was restored to 76 percent of it's 1940 output. This allowed Japan to ship "finished" products and cut the distance traveled and saved transports. When these refineries were bombed and reduced it caused a severe strain on the shipment of crude (combined with allied subs making tankers priority targets and Ariel mines)
Balikpapan alone provides enough oil for Japan to fight the war. (and Palembang is larger)
(There was always more oil there then could be transported. Aided by the fact that the Balikpapan crude was pure enough to use as ship fuel without further refining.(however any ship that loads unrefined fuel risks explosions if fires onboard) By 43 the Japanese had these refineries operating at 45 percent the 1940 level. When they were bombed the tanker fleet became insufficent. (while working 1 tanker could load Balikpapn and transport Av gas to Singapore. Without these refineries 3 tankers had to haul the oil to Japan to get the 1 tanker load of Av gas)
Oil was vital to Japan and a major cause for the war however it is not "crude oil" that Japan needed it was fuel and aviation gas.
The single largest factor for the poor pilot training programs after 1943 was a lack of av gas for training. The Japanese were able to distill high octane fuel from pine roots (it ruined the engine after 2-3 days but could be used for Kamikaze's)
(they distilled almost 160,000 gallons per day)
Peak import for Japan was in Aug 43 when 1.75 million barrels were delivered to Japan. (once again however I add there was always more oil for transport then could be moved) If the Japanese are able to use Balikpapan as a fleet refueling port they would save a lot of effort. However Balikpapan falls in range of enemy bombers and submarines.)
What I mean the important thing is not that Japan needs crude oil in order to produce Tanks, aircraft or artillery. Whats important is that her refining capacity be kept running at 100 percent. She will come into possession of far more oil then she can refine. (But it will still be worth while in WITP to move it home while she can)
The important thing with heavy industry in WITP is the fuel output.
I don't think oil should be tied to the production end. It should be two separate outputs. If enough resource is present then the tanks get built. Oil should transform into fuel as a separate process. (and fuel should be produced up to the limit of heavy industry (every two oil points should produce 1 fuel point) up to the limit per day (no matter how much oil is present there should be a fuel production cap) (Japan needs 17380 oil to produce 100 percent fuel. (8640 points) if only 5k oil is present rather then no heavy industry working only 2.5k fuel gets produced)
At 1 fuel point per heavy industry (consuming 2 oil points) Japan would produce 8640 fuel points per day (plus what the refineries at oil locations produce) That's 259200 fuel points per month. (I still need to total up what the oil center production would equal)
What does one oil point or 1 fuel point represent? I need to be able to convert barrels per day production/consumption to check the various base outputs. (and then the correct "exchange" rate can be determined
With aircraft in WITP not using fuel the Japanese airforce will depend on resource not fuel/oil. (transforming the strategic war from oil to resource. The Japanese have many AK to haul resource but a limited number of tanker to haul oil) Japan never ran out of aircraft. It was unable to fly what it had because of a shortage of Avgas.
One fix would be to require Aircraft to expend fuel and supply in order to fly. (This would eliminate the need to create a new type supply aviation fuel)(and would greatly increase the rate Japan expended fuel)
Presently I don't see the Japanese transport capacity being worked. (Japan can move all the required oil/resource with 57x7k AK and 58x9k TK per month) leaving everything else to haul fuel and supply to combat use. AK can transport fuel/oil so as Japan I would limit the number of tankers in use (and use the horde of 7k AK)
I would restrict AK ability to haul fuel/oil (1/4) or only allow them to carry fuel. (not oil).
Japan should have an additional requirement. Since her population was roughly 72million 103x7k AK should always be busy hauling the required civilian goods from China/Manchuria. Call it CM points and the ships have to deliver 720000 points per month or Japans other capacities are reduced accordingly. CM points can not be stockpiled in Japan. (720000 points have to be moved every month. Excess are consumed with no benifit)
This will highlight the dependence Japan had for China and Manchuria (and reduce both the Japanese players willingness to declare war on the Soviet Union or reduce these garrisons. Now the Soviet Unions entering the war can have an effect of forcing the surrender of Japan. (loss of the CM points would cause the complete collapse of the Japanese economy)
(We need to really stretch the Japanese transport capacity)
AP should not be allowed to carry any load except ground/fuel/supply
hmmm, I seem to have become some what carried away. "
Boy we were innocent back then when it came to making strategy for PacWar.
From 10-3-2000
Talking about PacWar AI I wrote
"all AI problems are solved by playing against a human!!!! Who here does not win every game with ethier side against AI? I just captured Pearl in April 42 as Japan. Frank Jack lost his life and 3 CV's at Midway (but sank my beloved Akagi)Adm Scott lost 3 BB's and a ton of other ships at Johnson Island (japan 35000pts allies 30000) and as US have captured Truk and all of New Guenia, Solomans, New Britain, Borneo in Sept 43 IJN has lost 15CV's 6BB 15CA 17CL 85dd 200+AP 300+mcs (japan 44000pts allies 75000) The AI gets boring after a while, why does it leave 200+ merchants in air range? why put a leader all by himself some where? I have captured 4 or 5 this game without units?. I want a human any side to play with!!! "
9-14-2000 (or why I started playing Steel Panthers)
"You wanna know what really drives me up the wall? No...well here it is any way. I have 6 carriers, with the mission of attack enemy task force, they locate enemy tasks force with 3 carriers and launch strikes.....at nearby island airbase, supply depot and get creamed when enemy carriers launch strike. Why do they not attack enemy carriers? Do I have to set mission to NI on carrier based planes? PS I am downloading SPWaW so I will be here for about 12 hours it looks like ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!"
My very first post concerning WITP In response to Mike Wood
"Well, do these new games we are working on sound interesting to any of you PacWar folk?"
1-8-2001
"Hi, I am against a limit based on anything other then programing limits. (Just make sure to also include how to refuel a large TF and where to anchor it) It is ok to reward players who keep small TF (leader bonus) and penalize those who "overstack". I believe in letting the player cut his own throat where ever possible, rather then limit them to only "historical" modes of play. This means all I want are the ships/planes/units/leaders/maps. If the US player does not want to attack PI so be it (but allow Japan enough freedom to then not garrision it as heavy) I want the players to "invent" the war as they go not relive the war. Large TF small TF there is a difference not only it combat ability but in where you can keep them. Try sending 100 combat ships (as Japan) to the outer limits of the empire and see what happens to them. Even if an airbase is built to hold 100 AC sometimes you just can't supply that many. So please include realistic logistics ect but leave out the politics ( I usally fire MacArthur and shoot him rather then listen to him) Please leave out any units not actually available. Everything I have read about this new game makes me want it. I really am looking forward to playing it online. (Not PBEM,.... well that too) ---"
After 1 year of Steel Panthers
1-30-2002
"Greetings, OK I am interested in finding out if anyone has been clobbered by the AI more often then I am. Everyone knows you have to go out of your way to get beat by the machine.
Previously the worst distaster I had was the 1 turn rout the AI inflicted on my Soviet Tank Bn
(I moved on AI's turn the Luftwaffe appeared and when they departed my entire force was ethier burning or running)
I have been playing around with paratroops lately. I started a WW2 long Camp. Core force was 4 companies of Itailian Paratroops, to which I added a MG and Flame sec per platoon and 1 81mm mortar per company. Battle one was a delay in Poland (I know ITai's were not really there) DV Bn lost 2 MG. Battle 2 was a meeting engagement. Transport planes were available so I loaded the BN and had enough support points for 2 Armoured cars and a recon group. 1 AC was assigned the northern VH area 1 to the center with the recon teams securing the southern. The BN would drop on the rear objective area on turn 2 and the battle would be over.
The transports overshot the LZ and the BN landed right in the midst of the Polish forces. By the time it was my turn
11 of 39 sqds were dead, 5 of 12 MG, 5 of 12 Flame sec, 3 of 12 ATR (20mm) and 4 of 4 mortars.
Of the remaining only 1 sqd rallied enough to gain movement and only 2 others enough to have shots (I refrained from firing) But the rear objective was taken. However the center AC was destroyed and that objective area occupied by Polish tanks and AC's. Back to the drawing board. "
My first post in the UV forum in response to Joel
"Would anyone like to make a guess at the amount of fuel that would be available to the IJN in the South Pacific during 1942 and 1943? We would like any info on fuel tonnage that was historically available, and what might have been available had the South Pacific been made the priority area for the entire IJN fleet. Any help would be appreciated. Currently in UV the only fuel restriction is getting the fuel shipped from Truk to the advance bases. Once the IJN fleet is committed to the campaign in 42, fuel becomes a key element for Japanese succes, but should it be limited? Joel "
[X(][X(][X(]
2-9-2002
"Hello I would check storage cap in places like Truk and Rabual then limit supply to Truk to whatever it could store (but unlimited access to more) then I would require Japan to move it to Rabual in game to limit of what it can store. I will return after I have procured some figures.
After some searching I am suprised to find Truk was not that good of a base. (excellent anchorage poor facilities. It seems the fuel storage was simply anchoring a tanker?) OK here is some data from a guy who believes oil avaibilty did have a impact on the South Pac operations.
Ship Fuel Usage at Cruising Speed (tons/hour)
Battleship 8 - 16
Fleet Aircraft Carrier 6.5 - 13
Light Carrier 3.5 - 6
Heavy Cruiser 3.5 - 5.5
Light Cruiser 1 - 2
Destroyer 1.5 - 2
...And Oil Next, let's examine Japan's situation with respect to petroleum production at this stage in the war. In the fourth quarter of 1942, Japanese oil production (which was almost entirely concentrated in her conquered territories, such as the Indies) was 1,194,000 tons. Of that, only 643,000 tons made it to Japan (which is where practically all the refineries were), the rest being either lost to attack, or consumed in the conquered territories. So roughly 214,000 tons of oil per month was making it to Japan. However, the Imperial Navy alone was consuming about 305,000 tons of heavy oil (in the form of fuel oil) per month by this stage in the war (Parillo, p. 237). Keep that figure in mind: 305,000 tons. Furthermore, by this time (October-November 1942) it must have been begining to become clear to the Japanese that the oilfields in Java and Sumatra were not going to be brought back into production at nearly the rate that pre-war estimates had counted on. The Dutch and their Allies had done a much more thorough job of demolition in the oilfields than the Japanese had hoped. This, coupled with the sinking of a transport filled with equipment and valuable refinery personnel, meant that Japanese efforts to get the production field back into production were doomed to be much slower than hoped by the Japanese military. The fact that the Imperial Navy had built up large stocks of petroleum before the was could not compensate for this sobering knowledge, especially given the high rate of fuel consumption thus far in the war. The week-long Battle of Midway alone had consumed more fuel than the Japanese Navy had ever used before in an entire year of peacetime operations (Willmott, "The Barrier and the Javelin"). With this in mind, let us examine what it took to fight effectively around Guadalcanal. Scenarios At this point, it's appropriate to construct some scenarios illustrating Japanese petroleum consumption during the Solomons campaign. Scenario One: 'The Bombardment' Redux On the night of October 13-14, the battleships Haruna and Kongo subjected Henderson Field to one of the most intense naval bombardments of the entire war. Without question, this was one of the more succesful naval forays the Japanese made into the waters of IronBottom Sound. When the Americans emerged the next morning, Henderson Field was wrecked, most of its aircraft destroyed, and much of the stock of aviation fuel gone up in smoke. Many Americans remember this as the most desperate phase of the entire battle. With Henderson temporarily out of action, the Marines could do little except watch helplessly as the Japanese landed troops further up the coast during the morning. Frantic searching managed to turn up enough fuel to get a few aircraft flying, but it seemed likely that the days were gone when Henderson Field could dominate the seas around Guadalcanal. The sense of American isolation at this time was quite acute, and had an immediate negative effect on American morale. But what was the cost to the Japanese in terms of their petroleum reserves? Let's examine this operation from a logistical standpoint. To perform the mission, the Japanese brought the two battleships (Haruna and Kongo), a light cruiser (Isuzu), and nine destroyers down from Rabaul. From Rabaul to Guadalcanal is approximately 650 miles as the crow flies. For our purposes, we'll call it 800 miles each way (to allow for geography, zig-zagging to avoid submarines, and so on). Japanese practice was to cruise down the Slot at normal cruising speed (call it 16 knots), and then dash in under cover of darkness. Thus, one might have a 'mission profile' looking something like this: 650 miles at 16 knots, and then a 150 mile dash in the late afternoon into the combat area at a speed of 25 knots. This would be followed by an hour-long bombardment, or naval combat, and then a similar dash back out so as to be well away from Henderson Field by morning. In addition, we will add in the fuel needed to maneuver at high speed for an additional hour, which will replicate a submarine scare, air attack, or similar combat event as the force cruises down The Slot. Base fuel consumption for these vessels is as follows:
Ship Tons of Oil Burned / Hour (16 kts.)
Kongo-class BB 9.25 (est.)
Isuzu-class CL 3 (est.)
DD 1.35 (est.)
For the purposes of our model (and throughout this essay) we will assume that fuel consumption will triple at 25 knots. In combat operations, fuel consumption will increase by a factor of five for the larger ships (cruisers and above), and by a factor of ten for destroyers. These are rough figures, but they serve to illustrate the point. When matched against the 'mission profile', fuel consumption looks as follows:
Event Speed Total Miles Traveled (nm) Total Hours Traveled Tons of Oil Burned/ Hour Total Tons of Oil Burned
Cruising Operations 16 knots 1300 81.25 34 2734
Run In/Out of IronBottom 25 knots 300 12 101 1211
Combat 30 knots 60 168 2 336
Totals - 1660 95 - 4,282 Thus, one 4-day mission consumes over 4,000 tons of oil. That equates to roughly 1.4% of Japan's total monthly consumption of 305,000 tons. 1.4% may not seem like a lot, but remember, that 305,000 tons has to power the entire Japanese Navy. That includes Combined Fleet, all of its combat units, all of it's submarines, all the training exercises, all the patrol boats out on routine operations, escorts for convoys: everything. And just wait, it gets worse...
Scenario Two: 'The Bombardment' Deluxe Next, let's take a look at another favorite scenario: Yamamoto gets serious and brings Yamato et. al. down from Truk to put Henderson Field out of business. In fact, Yamamoto purposed to do this at at least one point in the campaign, but was overruled by Imperial Headquarters (Agawa, "The Reluctant Admiral", pp. 328-329). The reason? Apparently, the fuel reserves at Kure, one of Japan's most important naval bases (and therefore presumably a bellwether for the supply situation of the Navy as a whole) had slipped to 65,000 tons. Navy consumption of fuel had recently topped 10,000 tons a day (which jibes nicely with the 305,000 tons/month figure I arrived at independently from other sources). This explicitly points to the importance of fuel in the Solomons campaign, and indicates that in this one instance at least the IJN could not afford to commit its heavy units because of fuel constraints. It should be noted, too, that In any case, had Yamamoto proceeded with such an operation, his task force would probably also have included Musashi, as well as the usual contingent of cruisers and DDs. I'm going to postulate a task force composed of Yamato, Musashi, four Myoko-class heavy cruisers, a Nagara-class light cruiser, and her attendant flotilla of, say, nine destroyers -- a powerful shore bombardment force with plenty of anti-surface power. Their individual fuel consumptions at 16 knots look like this Ship Tons of Oil Burned/ Hour
Yamato 14
Myoko-class CA 5
Nagara-class CL 3 (est.)
DD 1.35 (est.)
Of course, Truk is a lot further away from Guadalcanal than Rabaul: 1,400 miles one way. Again, I will tack on an additional 25% (for a total of 1,750 miles) to account for zig-zagging and all that. So, our mission profile will be: cruise at 16 knots for 1,600 miles, followed by a 150-mile run in at 25 knots, followed by the bombardment and the run back out, and then the cruise home. Again, we'll also assume an air attack on the task force, and some high-speed running around in IronBottom as well, for a total of 2 hours worth of high-speed maneuvering. The fuel consumption rates for this mission look like this:
Event Speed Miles Traveled (nm) Hours Traveled Tons of Oil Burned/ Hour Total Tons of Oil Burned
Totals - 3560 214 - 15,535
Again, knowing what we know about Japanese petroleum usage rates, we have just consumed 5.1% of the IJN's monthly allowance. Was it worth it? You'd better hope so, and you'd better be prepared to repeat the exercise, because airfields have a tendency to repair themselves. This points to one of the frustrating aspects of the Guadalcanal campaign from the Japanese perspective -- decisive results didn't seem to be achievable. Rather, the campaign was one of prolonged attrition. As Admiral Ugaki noted in his diary, "It's infuriating -- we shoot them down and we shoot them down, but they only send in more." (Agawa, p. 326). From a naval perspective this meant that a one-shot attack against Henderson was probably not going to get the job done. Rather, if the Japanese were truly committed to bombarding the island airfield out of business, they needed to be able to mount such operations on a sustained basis. It might take weeks of such activity before the airfield was either eliminated or captured by ground forces. Imperial Naval HQ's refusal to send Yamato and consorts on such a mission to IronBottom Sound may have been an admission of this fact. One such bombardment mission in isolation, while possible, wasn't going to be sufficient in and of itself to secure victory. And the fuel for committing heavy units to Guadalcanal, night after night, doesn't seem to have been available Scenario Three: The Tokyo Express By the mid-point of the Guadalcanal campaign, the only way the Japanese could get any troops or supplies into Guadalcanal was via destroyer -- the 'Tokyo Express.' Let's take a look at what it took to keep the Express running. Typically, the Express would consist of four to six destroyers acting as transports, and another pair acting as escorts, for a total of six to eight DDs. A typical 'transport' destroyer would be able to carry either 150-200 troops or 200 55-gallon drums worth of supplies. According to our standard 'mission profile', total fuel usage for an individual destroyer under such conditions would be 172 tons round trip. Thus, a 'typical' Tokyo Express run could be expected to consume roughly 1,374 tons of oil fuel. That's nearly 1.5 tons of oil per man or barrel (counting the amortized fuel for the 2 escort DDs) delivered to Tassafaronga Point! A ton and a half of oil, for a couple hundred pounds of rice, or one half-starved infantryman without heavy equipment, is a lamentable exchange by any standard. Such runs occurred as often as every three or four days. Postulate a month in which six large (6 'transports' + 2 escorts = 8 DDs) Express runs occurred, bringing in roughly 7,000 men or supply barrels. It takes about 8,250 tons of oil to get that done. Congratulations! You have just consumed roughly 2.7% of the Imperial Navy's monthly oil supply to put a scant regiment of troops (4000 guys) and their rice and miso soup (3,000 or so barrels worth) on Guadalcanal! That's a lot of oil, for very little in the way of credible logistical result, because of course destroyers were manifestly incapable of bringing in the sorts of heavy weapons and equipment which were necessary for the Japanese to eject the heavily dug-in Americans around Henderson Field Scenario Four: The Tokyo Express ad absurdum But in fact, by November 1942, the needs on Guadalcanal were much greater. The Japanese 17th Army's staff calculated its supply needs as being five destroyer loads per night, or 150 loads per month. Including, say, two escorts for each 5-load run (7 DDs total), that's 1,200 tons of oil per night, or more than 36,000 tons per month! And again, this doesn't begin to bring in the heavy equipment. To do that, 17th Army calculated that they would need 800 destroyer runs, as well as 20 runs from seaplane tenders. The destroyers alone (even if they had been available, which they were not) would have consumed 137,000+ tons of oil to do that job. Throw in the seaplane tenders (which were fuel hogs -- worse than a heavy cruiser), and the total fuel needed tops 150,000 tons, or nearly 50% of the IJN's monthly fuel allotment. When presented with 17th Army's plans, Yamamoto remarked that they were so unrealistic that success might be unattainable with such brains in charge of the Imperial Army's forces on Guadalcanal (Frank, p. 408). Clearly, the Tokyo Express was not getting the job done over the long haul. Conclusion The solution to Japan's dilemna, of course, was embodied in neither battleships nor the sleek destroyers of the Tokyo Express, but rather in the chunky hulls of humble cargo ships. 100 tons of fuel oil and a single decent-sized (12,000 ton deadweight) freighter will deliver a battalion of troops, and a good chunk of their supplies, too. Instead of the absurd number of destroyer loads outlined above, 17th Army's needs could have been met with 50 cargo-ship loads of troops and supplies. In fact, in terms of tonnage delivered for a given amount of oil burned, a cargo ship is something like 30 times as efficient as a destroyer. However, in order to use the plodding cargo vessels, the Japanese needed to neutralize American air power. Yet without the supplies and heavy weapons such ships could deliver, the Japanese ground forces were incapable of capturing the airfield. Quite a vicious Catch-22 indeed. This dilemna, coupled with the perceived need to hold Guadalcanal at all costs, led to an even more ominous strategic situation. Japan had started the war severely disadvantaged in the area of petroleum stocks. If the Japanese were to win, they would have to make a virtue of necessity and fight effectively 'on the cheap' against their larger, more powerful opponent. Japanese doctrine acknowledged this inferiority, and sought to remedy the situation with an emphasis on moral superiority, training, and the usage of powerfully armed light forces to compensate for its disadvantage in numbers of expensive, gas-guzzling capital ships. In the Japanese Army, extreme aggressiveness, forced marching, and bicycles, were seen as replacements for petroleum-powered motorized transport and armored forces. You will have to decide what percentage of the 214000ton per month supply is allowed for Southern Operations. Then you need to decide how and where and when it becomes available. It seems one lucky US sub sinking the right tanker between Truk and Rabaul could play a large role it deciding what the Japanese player can do. He may need to plan ahead and conserve fuel while he builds up an in theatre reserve before he can do any large scale sustained operations. "[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]
[X(] Did I really used to talk like that?
6-24-2003 Fuel again only now it's WITP
"Hi, Several points. Oil was not critical to Japan's industry. (Steel was the vital element there) Oil was critical to the Navy and Air Forces. (Had the Navy remained a coal burning force there would have been no war)(However aircraft in WITP/UV do not need fuel a serious problem)
It was not just the "oil" embargo that led to war it was the "no avation gas over 87 octane"
When the embargo began Japan had 43 million barrels of oil stockpiled (and had been attempting to corner the market of US av gas) The IJN consumed the stockpile at 1 million barrels per month. (So Japan had oil enough to last peace time rate of consumption almost 2 years.(since there were other consumers besides the IJN )Of course once the war began consumption rates went up considerably. (Dec 41 stockpile is around 39 million barrels (34 million barrels of fuel and 5 million barrels oil)(Japanese prewar estimate was they would reach crisis in mid-42 without NEI)
There is no synthetic oil production. By 1941 this plus Home Island Oil extraction programs produced enough for normal production per year. (But the increase in consumption brought by the military required a new secure source of oil (NEI)
The serious threat to Japan is not to oil production but to refining.
By damaging the refineries you force the Japanese to transport the "worthless" crude oil back to be refined. In the process the tankers become targets. Balikpapan was restored to 76 percent of it's 1940 output. This allowed Japan to ship "finished" products and cut the distance traveled and saved transports. When these refineries were bombed and reduced it caused a severe strain on the shipment of crude (combined with allied subs making tankers priority targets and Ariel mines)
Balikpapan alone provides enough oil for Japan to fight the war. (and Palembang is larger)
(There was always more oil there then could be transported. Aided by the fact that the Balikpapan crude was pure enough to use as ship fuel without further refining.(however any ship that loads unrefined fuel risks explosions if fires onboard) By 43 the Japanese had these refineries operating at 45 percent the 1940 level. When they were bombed the tanker fleet became insufficent. (while working 1 tanker could load Balikpapn and transport Av gas to Singapore. Without these refineries 3 tankers had to haul the oil to Japan to get the 1 tanker load of Av gas)
Oil was vital to Japan and a major cause for the war however it is not "crude oil" that Japan needed it was fuel and aviation gas.
The single largest factor for the poor pilot training programs after 1943 was a lack of av gas for training. The Japanese were able to distill high octane fuel from pine roots (it ruined the engine after 2-3 days but could be used for Kamikaze's)
(they distilled almost 160,000 gallons per day)
Peak import for Japan was in Aug 43 when 1.75 million barrels were delivered to Japan. (once again however I add there was always more oil for transport then could be moved) If the Japanese are able to use Balikpapan as a fleet refueling port they would save a lot of effort. However Balikpapan falls in range of enemy bombers and submarines.)
What I mean the important thing is not that Japan needs crude oil in order to produce Tanks, aircraft or artillery. Whats important is that her refining capacity be kept running at 100 percent. She will come into possession of far more oil then she can refine. (But it will still be worth while in WITP to move it home while she can)
The important thing with heavy industry in WITP is the fuel output.
I don't think oil should be tied to the production end. It should be two separate outputs. If enough resource is present then the tanks get built. Oil should transform into fuel as a separate process. (and fuel should be produced up to the limit of heavy industry (every two oil points should produce 1 fuel point) up to the limit per day (no matter how much oil is present there should be a fuel production cap) (Japan needs 17380 oil to produce 100 percent fuel. (8640 points) if only 5k oil is present rather then no heavy industry working only 2.5k fuel gets produced)
At 1 fuel point per heavy industry (consuming 2 oil points) Japan would produce 8640 fuel points per day (plus what the refineries at oil locations produce) That's 259200 fuel points per month. (I still need to total up what the oil center production would equal)
What does one oil point or 1 fuel point represent? I need to be able to convert barrels per day production/consumption to check the various base outputs. (and then the correct "exchange" rate can be determined
With aircraft in WITP not using fuel the Japanese airforce will depend on resource not fuel/oil. (transforming the strategic war from oil to resource. The Japanese have many AK to haul resource but a limited number of tanker to haul oil) Japan never ran out of aircraft. It was unable to fly what it had because of a shortage of Avgas.
One fix would be to require Aircraft to expend fuel and supply in order to fly. (This would eliminate the need to create a new type supply aviation fuel)(and would greatly increase the rate Japan expended fuel)
Presently I don't see the Japanese transport capacity being worked. (Japan can move all the required oil/resource with 57x7k AK and 58x9k TK per month) leaving everything else to haul fuel and supply to combat use. AK can transport fuel/oil so as Japan I would limit the number of tankers in use (and use the horde of 7k AK)
I would restrict AK ability to haul fuel/oil (1/4) or only allow them to carry fuel. (not oil).
Japan should have an additional requirement. Since her population was roughly 72million 103x7k AK should always be busy hauling the required civilian goods from China/Manchuria. Call it CM points and the ships have to deliver 720000 points per month or Japans other capacities are reduced accordingly. CM points can not be stockpiled in Japan. (720000 points have to be moved every month. Excess are consumed with no benifit)
This will highlight the dependence Japan had for China and Manchuria (and reduce both the Japanese players willingness to declare war on the Soviet Union or reduce these garrisons. Now the Soviet Unions entering the war can have an effect of forcing the surrender of Japan. (loss of the CM points would cause the complete collapse of the Japanese economy)
(We need to really stretch the Japanese transport capacity)
AP should not be allowed to carry any load except ground/fuel/supply
hmmm, I seem to have become some what carried away. "
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Mogami's Cat
Good to hear you are a cat man. I have three, 2 black and 1 black/white. Consequently they're named Shadow, Midnight and Moonlight. I think you should treat yourself to another cat. BTW, after reading some of your recent comments ref. how NOT to play, l've started a new game. I'm not going to take unfair advantage of the A1 anymore and l'm incorporating all the advice you gave me. It's shaping up to be a good game and l even feel better for it. Cheer's Mogami. (Don't forget now, get a cat.)
Nulli Secundus-Honi Soit Qui Maly Pense.
PBEM
Hi, What with 7 PBEM going. Opponents in every time zone I've been sitting here waitng for a turn for over 4 hours. [X(]
6-30-2003 About PacWar being lopsided in PBEM boy I've been singing this tune a while.
"Hi, The leading cause of Japanese victory is allied players trying to move too fast. The very first thing the allies should do is secure Central Pacific. Build all the airfields and defend them.
Protect the route to India.
Protect Austraila.
Don't attempt any offensive before securing the defense.
Devine the Japanese plan. Study movment and troop/ship commitments. Move defense in front of (but far enough back to not expose) Japanese thrusts. Hopefully at somepoint in the future the Japanese will over extend and then be vulernable to counter attack. (The Allies must not try offensives before inflicting a costly defeat on Japanese) "
6-30-2003 About PacWar being lopsided in PBEM boy I've been singing this tune a while.
"Hi, The leading cause of Japanese victory is allied players trying to move too fast. The very first thing the allies should do is secure Central Pacific. Build all the airfields and defend them.
Protect the route to India.
Protect Austraila.
Don't attempt any offensive before securing the defense.
Devine the Japanese plan. Study movment and troop/ship commitments. Move defense in front of (but far enough back to not expose) Japanese thrusts. Hopefully at somepoint in the future the Japanese will over extend and then be vulernable to counter attack. (The Allies must not try offensives before inflicting a costly defeat on Japanese) "
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
-
Ron Saueracker
- Posts: 10967
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
RE: PBEM
ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, What with 7 PBEM going. Opponents in every time zone I've been sitting here waitng for a turn for over 4 hours. [X(]
6-30-2003 About PacWar being lopsided in PBEM boy I've been singing this tune a while.
"Hi, The leading cause of Japanese victory is allied players trying to move too fast. The very first thing the allies should do is secure Central Pacific. Build all the airfields and defend them.
Protect the route to India.
Protect Austraila.
Don't attempt any offensive before securing the defense.
Devine the Japanese plan. Study movment and troop/ship commitments. Move defense in front of (but far enough back to not expose) Japanese thrusts. Hopefully at somepoint in the future the Japanese will over extend and then be vulernable to counter attack. (The Allies must not try offensives before inflicting a costly defeat on Japanese) "
Took a kip...sorry, Mog. And yes, you did talk like that![:D] Oh to be at the design stage again given what we now know....[X(][;)]
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan