How will this work without mid-ocean intercepts?

[BlackVoid]

It is a major problem of the model in WITP that it is not possible to intercept surface forces at sea. Any surface raiding (like the germans did during WW2) is impossible.
This game is going back to the 1920s where battleships are the decisive weapon. How will this work if you cannot make a mid-ocean intercept?

I am really puzzled by this omission in the game engine and this will make this expansion very unrealistic. It also hurts in WITP, as any convoy is totally invulnerable to surface attacks while at sea.

Is there a plan to implement this feature for WPO and WITP?

[Tankerace]

Nope. We already asked Mike.

Mid ocean intercepts are possible, but you have to plan them. You have to take a contact sighting, and (if it has a speed), figure out which hex it will be in during the night phase or the day phase. Order your fleet to that hex, and during the phase the ships will engage each other.

This is best around islands and such, a few hexes away at the most. However, if you look at WW2, and more importantly WWI (which is what WPO is based on), large naval battles were rarely fought in the middle of the ocean. They would be be usually no more than 500 miles out (about 7 hexes in WPO/WitP) of land. Also, without radar, and with short range spotting planes (which aren't a common feature of US battleships until 1923, and Japanese until 1925) such an intercept would be pure luck, and quite frankly I would rather have fewer (i.e. none) than far too many. To see each other, the fleets would have to sail within 20nm of each other, quite a feat with no sensors other than binoculars in the middle of an ocean. And if it was at night, they could pass extremely close together and not even see each other.

Look at Jutland. The German Hochzeeflotte was completely surprised by the Grand Fleet, yet total capital ship losses amounted to 3 British BCs to 1 German BC and 1 OBB. In the night battle, a series of skirmishes were fought, but nothing even close to being decisive. This could be reflected in the German fleet sailing to Hex A in WPO, but the British spot them (submarine, airplane, whatever), and putting there fleet in Hex B, where the Germans will be in the day phase the turn before reaching point A.

Personally, I would like to see a new TF, the "Surface raider" of which only 1 ship of the BB, BC, CA, or CL class could be assigned, and somehow let that TF be given mid ocean intercept capability. This way you could let it roam in a convoy lane, and it would intercept merchant fleets, yet the battle line would still require the player to do the work to intercept a battle fleet. But, unfortuneatly, I don't think that would be possible.

[BlackVoid]

Then have fun, I am out...
500 miles is mid-ocean in WITP terms and it is next to impossible to do it in the game.

Frankly, this is a badly designed game. Too much control where you do not need it. Too little where you do.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

Then have fun, I am out...
500 miles is mid-ocean in WITP terms and it is next to impossible to do it in the game.

Frankly, this is a badly designed game. Too much control where you do not need it. Too little where you do.

Even in WITP I've had outside of base intercepts.

Especially in areas where theres some limited movement like straits and around islands.

You do need to work it out from sightings, and really, when you look at Pacific, it never as that easy, in facy many of the surface combats occured near islands, in straits, inin areas like the solomons, and other places.

I really cannot recall any actual mid ocean battles.

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

Then have fun, I am out...
500 miles is mid-ocean in WITP terms and it is next to impossible to do it in the game.

Frankly, this is a badly designed game. Too much control where you do not need it. Too little where you do.

I think our friend BlackVoid is an extraordinarily daffy individual. In order to intercept something, you need to know where its going in order to get there first. If you can tell me of a way to design a game in which you could freely do this and still manage to have fun, I'm all ears. Otherwise, the nautical term for this would be "running into sh*t in the middle of the ocean for no reason".

[Tankerace]

I understand your feelings Blackvoid, and I won't try and change your mind. All I can say is that I have had fun playing WPO, and I imagine that in the next few months many more people will too. Perhaps in the future you might give it a try.

However, I am forced to point out that in WWI (the naval tactics I have modeled WPO after), large battles rarely happened out of the blue.

Take the Battle of the Heligoland Bight. The British noticed increased German patrols in the area, and thus sent Force C and Force K. When the 2 fleets intercepted each other, it was a mere 25 miles off the island of Heligoland (or, in WitP terms, the same hex). Not a midocean intercept.

The Battle of Dogger Bank was fought about 120 miles east of Britian. In WitP terms, 2 hexes.

The Battle of Jutland, by far the yardstick of WPO, was fought about 60 miles SSW of Norway, and 110-120 miles W of Denmark. In WitP, 1 hex and 2 hexes respectfully.

The thing you have to remember, given the poor quality of submarines, unrealiability of radios, short range scouting planes (often without radios), and no radar, few major battles happened out to 500 miles. The majority in WitP terms take place about 3 hexes away from land. This would be a problem in the Pacific, and thus why Naval Planners of the 1920's figured the "Pacific Jutland" would take place off an island, the PI, or Formosa if not mainland Japan itself. While not perfect, WitP simulates this very well. I would rather accept ahistorically fewer naval battles than far too many on the open water. If the player puts effort into it (much like Room 40 did with the Grand Fleet at Jutland), you can have a midocean intercept. But the truth of the matter is that at this stage of naval warfare, it would be very uncommon in the Atlantic, and far more so in the Pacific.

[paullus99]

The farthest distance from land any naval battle was fought was a little over 400miles - "the Glorious 1st of June" in 1794. I don't have all the particulars handy, but I'll look them up - but decidely in the day of sail.

http://www.cleverley.org/navy/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glorious_First_of_June

Even in WWII, captains & admirals knew the importance of having land nearby (and friendly ports in case of damage or defeat).

[Tankerace]

The main reason that I think a mid ocean intercept would be useful is to better simulate merchant raiders. However, I would rather they suffer than to have battle after battle happen ahistorically. 400 miles out huh? Thats.... six hexes in WitP terms. If you use the intel avalable to you, you could probably force a battle in WitP. But, given the stuff I have seen on WWI, 120-180 miles (2-3 hexes) seems to be the norm, all easily handled in WitP's current system.

[Onime No Kyo]

Actually, I would argue that raiders do not behave like other surface TFs. They sit on and patrol back and forth accross known merchant routes and avoid land altogether. If anything, they behave more like subs.

Maybe the sub patrol routines could be adapted to create Raider TFs. This should be waaay easier to do in WPO than WitP because there is no air umbrella to worry about.

How about it Tank, can you drop the idea on the devs? Maybe they'd do it.

[Tankerace]

I just emailed Mike, asking him if it is possible.

What I proposed is a single ship TF called "Surface Raider", in which the TF has midoceon intercept capability.

If he agrees and it can be implemented (here is hoping, don't know how the game engine would react), then a few neww elements would come into play.

1) If any player abused the system, as the TFs contain only 1 ship they could be destroyed by a large fleet with said intercept capability.
2) Convoys could now be realistically attacked.
3) Players would need to maintain forces to hunt down raiders (much like the British did in WWI with the Emden).
4) Players would need to make sure and properly escort convoys. By properly, I mean the WWI standard of using battleships as escorts (perhaps a TF set to follow mission?) and not the current WitP practice of a few tin cans.

When I hear something definate.... either way, Ill let you guys know.

Please note, I am not asking for all ships to have midocean intercept capability, but rather this one particular TF type.

[Onime No Kyo]

Thats awesome, Tank. If this is implemented this will add several new wonderful dimentions to the game. In effect, the player will no longer be able to simply crowd every battlewagon into a TF and send it on its way. He will be forced to deal with a whole host of new force commitment issues for convoy protection, raiding and counter-raiding. You would need to station capable BB units all along the map, like we now do with bombers. Besides that, there will now be a realistic niche for all those OBBs you have on the list.

I really, really, really hope that Mike sees it our way.

[Tankerace]

Just talked to Mike.

Unfortunately, it will not be able to be included the initial release of WPO.

That said, there may be a possibility that after release this can be implemented.

[BlackVoid]

This is very good news!!

Big naval battles were not my main problem anyway - these work in WITP. The big problem for me (even in WITP) is that it is not really possible to do merchant raiding in the fashion it was done by Germany in WW2.

The possibility of merchant raiding by surface ships is a significant change and alters strategic options. In WITP (not WPO) if Japan takes Noumea, the allied player can still sail convoys to OZ. Japan can raid merchants with CVs with or without Noumea. However with mid-ocean intercepts, no convoy is safe to sail to OZ without a significant escort force.

[BlackVoid]

In WPO terms without mid-ocean intercepts convoys are quite safe on the open sea even without escorts.....