Additional Dutch Forces

[Don Bowen]

Jo van der Pluym in the Netherlands has provided some very interesting data:

I KNIL Battalion: Formed in Australia Nov 15, 1944 from Dutch Troops that escaped the NEI - in action May, 1945
II KNIL Battalion: Formed from released POWs (sometime between 11/44 and 11/45, when??)
III KNIL Battalion: Formed near end 1945 (?) from released POWs
IV KNIL Battalion: Formed near end 1945 (?) from released POWs
V KNIL Battalion: Formed November, 1945 from released POWs

Princes Irene Brigade: In the process of being transferred from Europe in March, 1942. Mostly returned to Europe as NEI had fallen, some forces stayed as Commandos.

Mariners Brigade: US Equipped, equates to Marine Regiment - arrives Ceylon from U.S. in December, 1945.

Tiger Brigrade: British style Brigade from Europe, in Pacific prior to November, 1945

Korps Insulinde: Commando unit/Parachute Trained, Ceylon 1942, detachment in Australia, Company sized.

CVE Karel Doorman - arrives end 1945
860 Sqdn Barracuda
861 Sqdn Firefly

Not sure how this will work into the Scenario. The three Brigades are interesting. Comments??

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Jo van der Pluym in the Netherlands has provided some very interesting data:

I KNIL Battalion: Formed in Australia Nov 15, 1944 from Dutch Troops that escaped the NEI - in action May, 1945
II KNIL Battalion: Formed from released POWs (sometime between 11/44 and 11/45, when??)
III KNIL Battalion: Formed near end 1945 (?) from released POWs
IV KNIL Battalion: Formed near end 1945 (?) from released POWs
V KNIL Battalion: Formed November, 1945 from released POWs

Princes Irene Brigade: In the process of being transferred from Europe in March, 1942. Mostly returned to Europe as NEI had fallen, some forces stayed as Commandos.

Mariners Brigade: US Equipped, equates to Marine Regiment - arrives Ceylon from U.S. in December, 1945.

Tiger Brigrade: British style Brigade from Europe, in Pacific prior to November, 1945

Korps Insulinde: Commando unit/Parachute Trained, Ceylon 1942, detachment in Australia, Company sized.

CVE Karel Doorman - arrives end 1945
860 Sqdn Barracuda
861 Sqdn Firefly

Not sure how this will work into the Scenario. The three Brigades are interesting. Comments??

The reconstituted troops I don't see why they should be added. If the player rescues some of the Dutch infantry they will go and achieve the same results.

The possible problem with the former prisoner units, is that they appear because the prisoners were returned because the war was over. If the war in the game is continuing into the end of '45 then you haven't recovered the prisoners to man the units.

The carrier unit seems legit and apparently was a brit cve. From Hazegray.org

Nairana
ex-merchant
D05
Photos: As Dutch Karel Doorman. http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carrier ... pe/qh1.jpg

Built by John Brown. Laid down ???, converted prior to completion, launched 20 May 1943, commissioned 26 November 1943.
Operated as in a hunter-killer group and on Russia convoy runs. Loaned to the Netherlands as Karel Doorman (QH 1) and recommissioned 23 March 1946. Returned to RN 28 May 1948 and immediately sold into merchant service as Port Victor. Scrapped at Faslane starting 7/1971.

[Bradley7735]

I think the POW's were originally in Germany, not the NEI. I highly doubt that brigades could have been formed from rescued prisoners in the Pacific. Most of the pacific pow were recovered after the end (September 45).

[Don Bowen]

I'm currently leaning toward adding the Karel Doorman (with her airgroup) and two or possibly three of the Brigades.

There is an excellent case for adding the Mariners Brigade and the Tiger Brigade as late-1945 reinforcements. The question is the Princes Irene Brigade. Very interesting due to it's early-1942 arrival but historically did not remain in theatre.

The battalion level units are marginal - small and late in the war when the allies have an embarrassment of riches. Also the Korps Insulinde – too small and dispersed to be effectively represented. The Australian Commando Companies that we have implemented were larger and very much in the thick of early operations.

There are also two other small forces that I considered but rejected:
Wren Force – a Dutch/Australian force of about company strength that was meant to occupy the Aru Islands.
No 1 Fusilier Company – a heavy weapons company that was deployed to Merauke (the only provincial capital in the NEI that was not occupied by the Japanese).

[Jo van der Pluym]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I think the POW's were originally in Germany, not the NEI. I highly doubt that brigades could have been formed from rescued prisoners in the Pacific. Most of the pacific pow were recovered after the end (September 45).

The II KNIL Battalion is formed after that Australian Dutch forces form Australian I Corps liberated the POW Camps by Tarakan. The II, IV and V are formed for the biggest part from the released POWs in the Pacific after september 1945. After Januari 1946 start arriving many reinforcementsfrom the Netherlands. And local where more KNIL Battalions raised from released POWs that end 1946 in the NEI where more then 3 Divisions of Combattroops.

The Tiger Brigade was a Brigade of Conscripts/Volunteers, and the Units was all underway before VJ Day. As you know was a part of then Netherlands all liberated in September/October 1944. It's British Equiped and Trained.

The Princes Irene Brigade was a Brigade in name only. It's strength was about 1300 men.
They Exist out a HQ Co with AA Section, AT Plt and Engineer Plt, Recon Squadron (2x Armoured Car Plt and 2x Brengun Carriers Plt, 3x Battlegroups each about 5 or 6 Inf Plt and 1 MG Plt. Art Battery


The Mariniers Brigade TO was:
Brigade HQ - MP Plt
Marine Bn 3x each: HQ Co, Mortar plt, Recon Plt, 3x Inf Co
Engineer Bn: 2x construction Co, Combat Engineer Co, Engineer Co
Motor Transport Bn
Art Bn
Recon Co
Medical Co
Tank Co
Amfibic Trac Co
Heavy Co
It's US Equiped and Trained.

[Don Bowen]

Thanks Jo

With the small size I think the Princes Irene Brigade might be best omitted. The other two should be included, I believe.

It's too small for the mod, but the No. 1 Fusilier Company will be added to my personal version as the garrison of Merauke.

[Jo van der Pluym]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thanks Jo

With the small size I think the Princes Irene Brigade might be best omitted. The other two should be included, I believe.

And then there was only a part of it. Most goes back to the UK And there where only some volunteers from it that where part of the Korps Insulinde. Other part of Korps Insulinde where KNIL/Civilians that had escaped from the NEI. But after VE Day does Korps Insulinde expand to Battalion strenght, including Commandos from 2nd Troop 10 IA Cdo. In March is the Unit Disbanded. But most of the troopers goes to the Depot Korps Special Troepen or Depot KST exist out 1 Paratroop Co and 2 Commando Co's.

[Jo van der Pluym]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thanks Jo

With the small size I think the Princes Irene Brigade might be best omitted. The other two should be included, I believe.

And then there was only a part of it. Most goes back to the UK And there where only some volunteers from it that where part of the Korps Insulinde. Other part of Korps Insulinde where KNIL/Civilians that had escaped from the NEI. But after VE Day does Korps Insulinde expand to Battalion strenght, including Commandos from 2nd Troop 10 IA Cdo. In March is the Unit Disbanded. But most of the troopers goes to the Depot Korps Special Troepen or Depot KST exist out 1 Paratroop Co and 2 Commando Co's.

P.s How can i delete this message. i have by mistake a double post?

[pad152]

I'm currently leaning toward adding the Karel Doorman (with her airgroup) and two or possibly three of the Brigades.

There is an excellent case for adding the Mariners Brigade and the Tiger Brigade as late-1945 reinforcements.

I think CHS needs some Japanese Fan Boys!

[Bradley7735]

I think CHS needs some Japanese Fan Boys!

I know that Don and the boys would love to have anyone help with Japan. They need experts and there aren't very many out there to help.

[Tankerace]

Hey Don, to carry over some stuff from WPO, do you want to add the Sub tenders Konigen der Nederlanden and Pelikaan? Both (According tp dutchsubmarines.com) were at Surabaya when war broke out, although Konigen was in a state of disrepair and was scuttled after war broke out.

[Don Bowen]

I'm showing Konigen der Nederlanden as a hulk and Pelikaan decommissioned 1933:

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

[Tankerace]

Yes, but she was there. Pelikaan, while decommed, I believe reading some where she was still at Surabaya, but don't remember where.

[Don Bowen]

http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/ doesn't list her but my Lenton book on the Royal Netherlands Navy does have an entry:

Depot Ship Pelikaan
2300 tons
307 1/4 ft (oa) by 42 1/2 by 13 1/4
Two Shaft: 6-cyl M.A.N. Diesel engines (etc) = 12 kts. No fuel or endurance figures
4 3-in AA (4 x 1), two aircraft!!!!

Lost unknown cause Java 3/42

[Tankerace]

I thought I read she was there. Yeah, I think the 2 aircraft thing is pretty neat.

According to Dutchsubmarines.com:

Fuel: 500 tons.

My guess on range would be about 6-7000nm.

[janushm]

what can i say....i have returned.

anyway. those KNIL battalions where infact formed from former POW as they where the first to fight the indonesians after the war. [ive got to look it up but the first BN arrived september/october 45 in surabaja. but nothing to add to Jo's comments

cheers

Jan

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: janushm

what can i say....i have returned.

...

cheers

Jan

Welcome back Jan. It currently looks like we will skip all four of the ex-POW Battalions. The remaining question is the I KNIL Battalion which Jo indicated was formed in 1944 from Dutch Troops Escaping the NEI. By 1944 the allies have lots of troops and a single battalion is not very valuable. Do you happen to know what these troops were doing during 1942 and 1943??

We are going to add the Mariniers and Tiger Brigades but not the Princes Irene, as it mostly returned to Europe.

I've also been doing some checking on the CVE Karel Doorman and her airgroup. Apparently it did not commission into the Dutch Navy until the end of March, 1946 - and that was in Europe. Can't find when it reached the Pacific - do you know?? Her airgroup was only 4 Fireflies and 12 Barracuda. May be too late and too small to include.

And lastly, several British DD were transferred to the Dutch Navy in 1945/46. Do you have any data on their possible service in the Pacific??

Don

[janushm]

abouth the first doorman cve

former HMS. "NAIRANA"

11.000 tons

airwing was 890sq equipped with 15 fireflies

HOWEVER...it was only transferred to the dutch navy on march 20th 1946 so i dont think it would make it to the pacific in time also because the planes where only loaded in august 1946 because of pilot training. as far as i know barracuda's where never used by the dutch armed forces.

i dont know alot about ex british destroyers but a number of MSW's where sold by the brits/australians and used in the period we are talking about.

[Don Bowen]

Thanks - looks like she won't make the cut. Here's where I found the data on Barracudas. It's a little confusing but it appears to say 860 Squadron used them.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/860.html

Don

[janushm]

well i thought we first used swordfishes and then got the avengers...but my information on this is limited [couple of AC books, books on the occupation of indonesia by the japs and the conflict there after the war]