Bug: amphibious tanks can't overrun

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 5:23 pm

They seem to be the only tracked vehicles that can't...

I added the bug here naturally.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 9:16 pm

Where all amphibious tanks tracked? I thought some where wheeled due to weight. I'll have to check encyclopedia on this one. I'm pretty sure if any vehicle has any wheels it can't overrun.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 9:23 pm

I didn't check them all, but the ones I did (Pz-III(m), the Tauchpanzers, Sherman DD and Valentine DD) are indeed tracked.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 9:43 pm

Originally posted by gmenfan:
I'm pretty sure if any vehicle has any wheels it can't overrun.

I think the principle is that if a vehicle has any tracks, it can overrun. So for example German and US half-tracks are able to overrun.

Also I found another class-related error which makes it impossible to overrun high-caliber AA-guns (for example the Soviet 85mm AA m.39).

Other than that tanks, halftracks, assault guns, dozers, SP-guns, TDs, SPAs, SPAAs are able to overrun inf-guns, HMGs, mortars, cavalry, ski, motorcycle and bicycle troops, howitzers, AT-guns, observers, snipers and small-caliber AA-guns in addition to regular infantry.

Also, you can't melee attack the aforementioned big AA guns.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]

gdpsnake · Post by **gdpsnake** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 10:10 pm

Just curious, but what defines overrun? I can overrun people in my car and it has wheels!!!!!
I thought overrun was more a function of the armor driving into the enemy's positions (literally) and using the MG's and main gun to attack in close assault fashion. The vehicle esentially exposing the troops who run scared or lose camoflage and get shot.
So why can't an armor vehicle like a Armor Car overrun???? Can't a truck drive through an enemy position full of men blasting at the defenders? Isn't that an overrun? I guess I mean, how many actually get killed by being run over? I doubt it's more than one or two.
So I remain confused why only a tracked vehicle can overrun. Any armor capable of cross country travel should be able to do it.
Even the halftracks had wheels in front!

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 10:28 pm

Another class question: why can't bicycle and motorcycle troops enter building hexes, but cavalry can?

Units that can't charge into melee: mortars, motorcycles (bicycles and cavalry can!), observers, crews, big and small AA guns, howitzers, AT-guns, inf-guns.

You should be able to overrun and melee attack fortifications, command posts, ammo dumps, wagons, gun teams and pack mules. And of course the big AA guns.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:48 pm

Originally posted by Kharan:
Another class question: why can't bicycle and motorcycle troops enter building hexes, but cavalry can?

Units that can't charge into melee: mortars, motorcycles (bicycles and cavalry can!), observers, crews, big and small AA guns, howitzers, AT-guns, inf-guns.

You should be able to overrun and melee attack fortifications, command posts, ammo dumps, wagons, gun teams and pack mules. And of course the big AA guns.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]

The overrun in this game is overrun at it's most basic level, actually driving the vehicle over the target. It is not a combination of movement and fire, which is what you get when you drive into the hex and fire at the target at range 0. Some fortifications like log bunkers could be overrun, but for the most part forts are made up of too much concrete to drive over, much less destroy by mashing them under the tracks.
thanks, John.

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:52 pm

Units that can't charge into melee: mortars, motorcycles (bicycles and cavalry can!), observers, crews, big and small AA guns, howitzers, AT-guns, inf-guns.

You should be able to overrun and melee attack fortifications, command posts, ammo dumps, wagons, gun teams and pack mules. And of course the big AA guns.

I agree that mortars, FOs, crews etc shouldn't be allowed to initiate melee. These troops were trained, and more importantly did not have the psychological make-up to initiate a close quarters battle. Their training if anything told them they were (are) too valuable for an infantry fight, and to egress if at all possible. I agree though, that one should be able to "melee" fortifications, gun teams, CPs etc.

Similar thing for overruns. Armored vehicles are using the documented psychological effect of "tank terror" along with their MG armament. A big tracked thing seemingly invulnerable, driving THROUGH the defender's position(s) mowing down troops is the effect here. Hence the main-gun armament isn't too useful, nor should AFVs be allowed to overrun fortifications. Based on this, armored cars should be allowed to overrun albeit at reduced effectiveness, "soft vehicles" should not. Regarding fortifications, one has to look at what exactly are you "overrunning"? Pillboxes and bunkers aren't exactly easy things to roll over/through which is what an overrun actually is. There's also the secondary issue that men inside fortifications are much less subject to "tank terror" than those who are relatively unprotected. However, you should certainly be able to overrun CPs, guns of all calibers, and gun teams etc.

gdpsnake · Post by **gdpsnake** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:24 am

I'm not talking about overrunning forts which would be bizzare to me. I do believe that AC's and even some soft vehicles should be able to overrun troops in unentrenched positions. Probably too dangerous or stupid for AC's or soft vehicles to overrun defenders in a fortified/entrenched position but in the open YES! against men moving YES!
I often can't get results by entering the hex and shooting the unit like I can with a overrun. Plus my unit then can be hit/killed/supressed by my own troops who later fire into the hex. I never do anymore!
Sometimes I get better results by driving into an enemy crew weapon hex and letting the defender KILL HIS OWN CREW while trying to gun me.
So much for the LARGE 50 Meter Hex Theory!

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 2:13 am

You are not giving the psychological effect of an AFV, nor the training of crews its full due here. A truck etc driving into a position DELIBERATELY just ain't gonna happen. The driver is not trained to engage-not unlike crews above, his mentality is to hide himself and vehicle when rounds are flying. Frankly a truck just says "target" to most shooters; it is not going to inspire that sense of "tank terror" mentioned above. Rather than hide, it's going to draw all kinds of fire-because of the perception it can't shoot back-anybody riding in it gets killed as a bonus. AFVs including armored cars, certainly, are trained to use their weapon system to engage the enemy. Also, troops in the open are not necessarily always moving throughout the turn-a limfac of IGYG games. Also, a moving AFV less than 100 meters away with obvious hostile intent is going to cause troops who can't move away to go to ground and take what cover they can.

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 2:36 am

Kharan:
The problem with amphibious tanks might in the coding of the game because they can move across water which might not classify them as tracked. Sometimes you can't have the best of both worlds. Just a thought, we'll have to see what the developers take on this is.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 3:22 am

Some fortifications like log bunkers could be overrun, but for the most part forts are made up of too much concrete to drive over, much less destroy by mashing them under the tracks.

Yeah, that's true, overrunning forts was a bit much (although you should be able to melee them).

I agree that mortars, FOs, crews etc shouldn't be allowed to initiate melee. These troops were trained, and more importantly did not have the psychological make-up to initiate a close quarters battle. Their training if anything told them they were (are) too valuable for an infantry fight, and to egress if at all possible. I agree though, that one should be able to "melee" fortifications, gun teams, CPs etc.

I was just curious if there was some logic behind the fact that HMG's may initiate melee but mortars can't.

Hey Grumble, why don't you just make ten louder?

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 4:33 am

Yeah, definite point if HMGs are allowed, doesn't pass the "doctrine point".

"If we need that little push over the edge we go to eleven."
[at the concert in Las Vegas, David St Hubbins did exactly that]

gdpsnake · Post by **gdpsnake** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:40 am

Trucks driving into men or buildings is a real stretch since terrorism is a modern day theme but I see no reason that Armored Cars can't overrun. I'd be just as scared by it as a tank, perhaps more because it's more mobile, perhaps less.
I think we should have the option even if it's not a good idea. The combat routines for overrun would decide the issue of whether it would work.
Lots of KIA cars-BAD. Lots of routed Infantry-GOOD!

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 3:25 pm

Originally posted by gdpsnake:
Trucks driving into men or buildings is a real stretch since terrorism is a modern day theme but I see no reason that Armored Cars can't overrun. I'd be just as scared by it as a tank, perhaps more because it's more mobile, perhaps less.
I think we should have the option even if it's not a good idea. The combat routines for overrun would decide the issue of whether it would work.
Lots of KIA cars-BAD. Lots of routed Infantry-GOOD!

Spoiler: You mean like 'Jock Columns' in North Africa, trucks driving full tilt into infantry colums all guns blazing.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 11:40 pm

Has anyone noticed that an amphibious tank can also cross a stone wall completely immune to it's effects.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:25 am

Come to think of it, not even Derek Smalls would overrun or melee an ammo dump

.

gdpsnake · Post by **gdpsnake** » Fri Aug 10, 2001 7:31 pm

pbear,
That's what I meant but when I suggested it, well, you saw the reception it got on the post.
I still say overrun is not a function of running things over but chasing defenders down with MG's and a little terror.
A Banzai would be more an overrun than a melee depending on the defender holding or running.
Alexander the Great only killed/injured 1500 Persians for a loss of 500 Macedonians at Arbela when Darius decided to split. THEN the slaughter began as the Persians tried to flee after their King. 100,000 loses quoted in some sources.
That is overrun in my mind. The terror of the weapon and/or the impetus of the attack causes the defenders to flee/cower and the weapon kills/disperses the defenders.
Tanks were best but cars, trucks, even jeeps and men should be able to overrun if a defender fails the morale check. Otherwise it's a melee situation which would be bad for close assualts against the tank, car, truck, or the slaughter of the Banzai.
My opinion. Anybody offer what overrun really is if not this?

Gen. Maczek · Post by **Gen. Maczek** » Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:17 am

Well in that case, why the hell cant cavalry overrun?

More than once, both in Poland and the Soviet Union did cavalry charge infantry and 'overrun' it.
Ok I'm just being picky but it is also 'overruning'.
Regards.
Gen. Maczek