What are everyones thoughts on the Germans attacking Spain. I have not played enough to know for sure if it is a good German Strategy or not. I know in several other WWII games it works very well. It doesn't look to me as though the Allies can stop it and its capture by the Germans will go a long way towards securing Italy and conquering North Africa.
I read in one forum where someone (I think it was Uncle Joe) said that in his opinion conquering Spain would not have been much of a challenge for Germany which is why Spain (a country approx. the size of France and twice as large as Great Britain) is only 1 area so Germany can conquer it in 3 months. I think Napoleon thought the same thing. I believe Germany would have had a very tough time attacking Spain especially if it was attempting to do so only from the narrow strip of Occupied France which bordered Spain. More likely the Germans would have violated Vichy territory to attack Spain which would have had political repercussions. But even assuming Germany could conquer Spain in 3 months, why can't the surviving Spanish units retreat to Gibraltar and the damaged units go into the WA pool for building?
But my bigger problem with the Spanish Gambit is that there are no political repercussions at all for Germany attacking its friend Franco? I've posted in this Forum that I think the rules for Italian surrender need to be changed so that the Allies can't force an Italian surrender early in the war just by conquering one of the Italian Areas. IMHO this is ahistorical. By the same token I think Germany should pay a higher price for invading Spain. Perhaps the US production multiple should go to 2, or all Vichy units should switch sides to the WA (or at least the Vichy units in North Africa). At a minimum Germany should have to lose some supplies just like the WA and Russians do when they attack a neutral.
Anybody have any thoughts? Am I right, or am I just a newbie who should at least get some complete games in before he shoots off advocating wholesale rule changes.
The Spanish Gambit
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Harrybanana
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The Spanish Gambit
Robert Harris
RE: The Spanish Gambit
I've attacked Spain twice now, as well as Gibraltar, and I keep wondering whether it's too easy to do so. As you say, perhaps the fallout should be as much political as military.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
Well, the politics of attacking neutrals is outside the scope of this game. There are no repercussions for attacking any nation in the game outside the Politically Frozen zones. So, while I agree that it was not in Germany's interest to do so politically, they were probably capable of doing it, so the game allows it as a 'what if'.
As far the capability, yes, its true that Napoleon had a hard time. But times had changed. Its distinctly possible that the Germans would have been caught up in a guerrilla war for some time, but also equally possible that they could reduce true armed resistance in little time. The result would be the need to maintain an anti-partisan garrison, similar to Yugoslavia which was a partisan hell for the Germans. The game pretty much only models till the end of organized combat resistance.
In game terms, is a good strategy? I dont know. I dont tend to do it because I dont want the extra frontage to defend and I dont want to delay my attack on Russia. Securing the Med is nice, but the resources North Africa nets you arent all that many compared to the cost of the attack. Note that taking Spain doesnt even give you the Med for too long if the WAllies really want it back.
Some pros for taking it:
1) The Resources count for Victory. Its 3 more towards that magical 70.
2) Taking Gibraltar is a major headache for the British. Allowing the Italian navy free access in an out to hit convoys in the NA require a LOT of effort to defend.
3) You have access to the North African resources. Its only a few per turn/but every one counts.
4) It can be a spring-board from which to take out England. Once your fleets can combine, its possible to pull off a true Sea Lion rather than one that relies on the surprise and timing.
5) It gives potential access into the Middle East. This is where the biggest payoff is IMO. There are a handful of resources there and more importantly, a second front into Russia's resource rich areas.
Cons:
1) It can cost you valuable troops. Every unit lost is one less to go into Russia.
2) You arent really gaining much net production advantage. You were getting 2 resources per turn from Trade with Spain anyways. You do have access to Portugal though which brings in another one.
3) You have a LOT of front to defend against invasion. Note that if you secure the Med, you can free up forces that would be guarding Italy, so this one might be a wash for a while.
4) You are likely delaying your attack on Russia. This is the biggie IMO. Russia is building up at an alarming rate (almost as much as Germany). Russia is also not expending any supplies, so most of their production will be going to troops and research. This can make it quite hard to make meaningful gains early on. You have to make sure that the VPs you gain in Spain/Med are equal or more than what you would have gained in Russia. Otherwise, you are definately coming out behind.
At any rate, I've seen it done a few time successfully. Its a pain for the WAllies...of that I can attest. But it has its cost too. Like most everything in the game, its a strategic trade-off. Sometimes it will be a great idea and others it wont look so appealing.
As far the capability, yes, its true that Napoleon had a hard time. But times had changed. Its distinctly possible that the Germans would have been caught up in a guerrilla war for some time, but also equally possible that they could reduce true armed resistance in little time. The result would be the need to maintain an anti-partisan garrison, similar to Yugoslavia which was a partisan hell for the Germans. The game pretty much only models till the end of organized combat resistance.
In game terms, is a good strategy? I dont know. I dont tend to do it because I dont want the extra frontage to defend and I dont want to delay my attack on Russia. Securing the Med is nice, but the resources North Africa nets you arent all that many compared to the cost of the attack. Note that taking Spain doesnt even give you the Med for too long if the WAllies really want it back.
Some pros for taking it:
1) The Resources count for Victory. Its 3 more towards that magical 70.
2) Taking Gibraltar is a major headache for the British. Allowing the Italian navy free access in an out to hit convoys in the NA require a LOT of effort to defend.
3) You have access to the North African resources. Its only a few per turn/but every one counts.
4) It can be a spring-board from which to take out England. Once your fleets can combine, its possible to pull off a true Sea Lion rather than one that relies on the surprise and timing.
5) It gives potential access into the Middle East. This is where the biggest payoff is IMO. There are a handful of resources there and more importantly, a second front into Russia's resource rich areas.
Cons:
1) It can cost you valuable troops. Every unit lost is one less to go into Russia.
2) You arent really gaining much net production advantage. You were getting 2 resources per turn from Trade with Spain anyways. You do have access to Portugal though which brings in another one.
3) You have a LOT of front to defend against invasion. Note that if you secure the Med, you can free up forces that would be guarding Italy, so this one might be a wash for a while.
4) You are likely delaying your attack on Russia. This is the biggie IMO. Russia is building up at an alarming rate (almost as much as Germany). Russia is also not expending any supplies, so most of their production will be going to troops and research. This can make it quite hard to make meaningful gains early on. You have to make sure that the VPs you gain in Spain/Med are equal or more than what you would have gained in Russia. Otherwise, you are definately coming out behind.
At any rate, I've seen it done a few time successfully. Its a pain for the WAllies...of that I can attest. But it has its cost too. Like most everything in the game, its a strategic trade-off. Sometimes it will be a great idea and others it wont look so appealing.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
Most likely Franco would have cut a deal as soon as the Panzers massed on his borders.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
lol! Franco was quite a guy... icky though.
Spanish resistance wouldn't have been all that bad, since lots of people were pro-fascist to begin with.
It's nice to get at Gibralter! But not as nice as getting the Suez.
On the other hand, you have 3-4 Armour sitting there in West France, doing nothing on turn 2... throw in an infantry and 2 artillery & presto! Another province to garrison.
Spanish resistance wouldn't have been all that bad, since lots of people were pro-fascist to begin with.
It's nice to get at Gibralter! But not as nice as getting the Suez.
On the other hand, you have 3-4 Armour sitting there in West France, doing nothing on turn 2... throw in an infantry and 2 artillery & presto! Another province to garrison.
No Will but Thy Will
No Law but the Laws You make
No Law but the Laws You make
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Harrybanana
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RE: The Spanish Gambit
ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
Well, the politics of attacking neutrals is outside the scope of this game. There are no repercussions for attacking any nation in the game outside the Politically Frozen zones. So, while I agree that it was not in Germany's interest to do so politically, they were probably capable of doing it, so the game allows it as a 'what if'.
Thanks for your analysis Uncle Joe. But its not entirely true that there are no repercussions
for attacking any nation in the game. The WA has to pay 10 supplies and the Russians 5 supplies to attack a neutral and if the Japanese capture an inland Chinese Province (admittedly not a separate "nation") this also has repercussions as does Japan attacking Russia prior to Winter 42. My own opinion is it wouldn't take too much to reprogram the game to cause US production to go to 2X if the Germans invade Spain. But maybe this is too big a penalty, I don't know. I'll obviously have to play the game some more.
Robert Harris
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Kwik E Mart
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RE: The Spanish Gambit
my pbem opponent grabbed spain and gibralter. i think i gained 4 infantry, one light fleet and one fighter from the spainards. luckily, i had the italian fleet bottled up and moved enough fodder into egypt to create a sitzkreig...since i was able to successfully defend suez, and he couldn't move more troops into africa since i had the med bottled up, the loss of spain wasn't that painful for the WA...however, england was completely stripped to accomplish this, so taking spain along with a sealion would have put me in the hurt locker...as others have stated, the russian bear is gonna be very fat once germany decides to finally turn east...not sure i see the advantage for germany unless coupled with a sealion operation...
Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
Well, grabbing Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar worked for me in my first PBEM, which is winding up this week. With Gibraltar in hand, I was able to control the Med -- and worry less about the security of Italy. I rolled through North Africa, took Suez, and got as far as the Caucusus and southern Persia! But yeah, the downside is that the Russians were ready for me. It still worked out nicely, though. I came close to auto-victory, and now it's 1946 and I'm still doing fine.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
Italy is so weak and prone to falling that taking Gibraltar is a must. Going through Spain is optional.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
seems spain and gib are a must if your gonna have a chance. poping in and out of port to raid transports really erkks allies if they not careful
my next pbem game i get as axis gonna pitch curve ball at the allies [8D]
my next pbem game i get as axis gonna pitch curve ball at the allies [8D]
RE: The Spanish Gambit
This thread reminds me of one of the great, viable "What Ifs" for Germany to have won WW2. The actual plan was called "Operation Sphinx" and was the brainchild of Grand Admiral Erich Raeder. It was in 3 parts and had the objective of securing the Mediterranean for the Axis powers as well as projecting power into the Mideast. I won't mention the fact that the soft underbelly of the USSR would be exposed in the Caucasus as the plan didn't dwell that far into the future.
Phase one had Admiral Wilhem Canaris securing a cooperative military pact with his good friend General Francisco Franco for the demise of the British base at Gibraltar closing the western Med.
Phase two was the capture and subsequent neutralization of the UK island base of Malta.
We all know phase 3......Rommel's capture of Eqypt and the Suez Canal.
Could it have been done? IMO, sure, especially with Franco's cooperation. Would the Axis have won? Well the three phase operation had a good opportunity of success and definitely would have stretched UK resources especially in light of the Balkan situation and the subsequent surrender of Greece and Crete.
Only the remaining issue of whether the Brits would have been forced to come to the negotiating table as Hiltler had always held great hope for is in question.
And if not.......well the next "What If" called "Operation Orient" was developing as the wheels of Sphinx were winding down and that was the link up in India with the Japanese...but that's another story.
Phase one had Admiral Wilhem Canaris securing a cooperative military pact with his good friend General Francisco Franco for the demise of the British base at Gibraltar closing the western Med.
Phase two was the capture and subsequent neutralization of the UK island base of Malta.
We all know phase 3......Rommel's capture of Eqypt and the Suez Canal.
Could it have been done? IMO, sure, especially with Franco's cooperation. Would the Axis have won? Well the three phase operation had a good opportunity of success and definitely would have stretched UK resources especially in light of the Balkan situation and the subsequent surrender of Greece and Crete.
Only the remaining issue of whether the Brits would have been forced to come to the negotiating table as Hiltler had always held great hope for is in question.
And if not.......well the next "What If" called "Operation Orient" was developing as the wheels of Sphinx were winding down and that was the link up in India with the Japanese...but that's another story.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
I can only speak for playing against the AI (I was Axis, of course). Like someone said in an earlier analysis, you can get the required resources by taking Spain,Portugal, Gibraltar [to keep the WA off your butt [:D], Suez, Iraq, & Turkey. THEN attack Russia on 2 fronts; Europe and the Caucasus. You may wish to send a couple milita to Africa (Supplied via a transport link thru Suez) to give the WA something to do other than sending Russia gobs of Lend lease.[:D]
However, I have only tested this against the AI.
It requires waiting till mid '42 to attack Russia. Also, you must build a lot of militia (for antipartisan duty), subs, and transports. Also research the hell out of subs, AA, Panzers, fighters...any tech you can complete and use.
This is completely ahistorical, but hey....Hitler DID lose !!!-[;)]. If you feel like giving this a try, just look at what you need to go WEST & South until you hit water, then turn left, and go up thru Turkey. It took 4 or 5 games with MANY saves to work out the logistics, but you make the most of interior lines, instead of bitching about a 2 (or 3 or 4) front war. Blow away as many WA transports as possible, and keep partisans to a minimum by juggling your militia. When you move east try to grab and hold the Kiev and Blailoatock factory complexes, as well as the Caucasus and Grozny by turn 2 (or 3) of Operation Barbarossa.
This requires that you be a pathological skinflint with production points and research (do NOT waste even one point on any technology you don't intend to complete), but hey, the Germans had GREAT staffwork. Make the bean counters sweat [:-] ! It is hard work, but rewarding [:)]
A word about Japan: Wait until the Germans attack Russia before blasting Pearl Harbor - this works out to be mid to late 1942. By then, you should be in position to sweep all before you for about 6 months (as Admiral Yamamoto said). That is all the time you need. By the second or third turn after the US attack, the Axis will be over the magic number.
. First time I did it, I hit 76.
HOWEVER....This was against the AI (set to normal). Human opponents tend to be less forgiving......
I would be very interested in hearing from you on this plan.
Best of luck,
Prussian Tom
However, I have only tested this against the AI.
It requires waiting till mid '42 to attack Russia. Also, you must build a lot of militia (for antipartisan duty), subs, and transports. Also research the hell out of subs, AA, Panzers, fighters...any tech you can complete and use.
This is completely ahistorical, but hey....Hitler DID lose !!!-[;)]. If you feel like giving this a try, just look at what you need to go WEST & South until you hit water, then turn left, and go up thru Turkey. It took 4 or 5 games with MANY saves to work out the logistics, but you make the most of interior lines, instead of bitching about a 2 (or 3 or 4) front war. Blow away as many WA transports as possible, and keep partisans to a minimum by juggling your militia. When you move east try to grab and hold the Kiev and Blailoatock factory complexes, as well as the Caucasus and Grozny by turn 2 (or 3) of Operation Barbarossa.
This requires that you be a pathological skinflint with production points and research (do NOT waste even one point on any technology you don't intend to complete), but hey, the Germans had GREAT staffwork. Make the bean counters sweat [:-] ! It is hard work, but rewarding [:)]
A word about Japan: Wait until the Germans attack Russia before blasting Pearl Harbor - this works out to be mid to late 1942. By then, you should be in position to sweep all before you for about 6 months (as Admiral Yamamoto said). That is all the time you need. By the second or third turn after the US attack, the Axis will be over the magic number.
. First time I did it, I hit 76.HOWEVER....This was against the AI (set to normal). Human opponents tend to be less forgiving......
I would be very interested in hearing from you on this plan.
Best of luck,
Prussian Tom
"Ideological conviction will trump logistics, numbers, and firepower every time"
J. Stalin, 1936-1941...A. Hitler, 1933-1945. W. Churchill (very rarely, and usually in North Africa). F. D. Roosvelt (smart enough to let the generals run the war).
J. Stalin, 1936-1941...A. Hitler, 1933-1945. W. Churchill (very rarely, and usually in North Africa). F. D. Roosvelt (smart enough to let the generals run the war).
RE: The Spanish Gambit
A good Allied player will disintegrate your Italian fleet, and there really isn't much you can do about it except fight it out or hide in port.
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Harrybanana
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RE: The Spanish Gambit
ORIGINAL: sveint
A good Allied player will disintegrate your Italian fleet, and there really isn't much you can do about it except fight it out or hide in port.
Sveint, could you tell me how you (as the Allied Player) would disintegrate the Italian fleet in the central med assuming he attacks your Eastern med fleet on the 1st turn and does well (1sub and 1 hvy fleet dmged for the loss of 2 Allied hvys and 1 Light sunk or dmged) and he protects his fleet with 1 ftr and 1 tac. I am facing this situation now and need guidance.
Robert Harris
RE: The Spanish Gambit
Yeah, enlighten us sveint. IMO it seems the WA can do nothing about an Axis player making the Med his lake if he pushes the point home. Sure can't keep him from taking Gibraltar and a couple of more turns and the Suez is in Axis hands.
Well you Allied experts, what are you going to do about it?
Well you Allied experts, what are you going to do about it?
RE: The Spanish Gambit
First turn move both carriers to western med + some heavy and light fleets. Bring fighters to Girbraltar and Cairo. Oh and bring the sub too. You don't need much of a fleet near the UK.
Also the Italian fleet should lose if they try to attack on turn one... unless they get VERY lucky.
Also the Italian fleet should lose if they try to attack on turn one... unless they get VERY lucky.
RE: The Spanish Gambit
2nd turn, Axis blitz Spain, move in AA and Air assets to Spain and N. Italy(if they hadn't been moved in on turn 1), Axis fleet sits tight except for uboats which position themselves for intercept. 3rd turn will be attack on Gibraltar from Spain with land units and subsequent deployment of artillery, if WA fleet in W. Med they will face Axis air assault coupled with uboats.
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celebrindal
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RE: The Spanish Gambit
Actually I was kinda thinking about that myself, why didn't the developers factor in the monsoon's in the southern hemispheres, similar to winter effects. The reason why I ask is December was the start of the nice weather down there and waiting til summer as you suggested would have been terrible for the Japs to have invaded places. (Its one of the big reasons it was '43 before the yanks started doing anything in the pacific)ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
A word about Japan: Wait until the Germans attack Russia before blasting Pearl Harbor - this works out to be mid to late 1942. By then, you should be in position to sweep all before you for about 6 months (as Admiral Yamamoto said). That is all the time you need.
I would be very interested in hearing from you on this plan.
Best of luck,
Prussian Tom
Order is nothing more than Chaos on a bad day.
Dave
Dave
RE: The Spanish Gambit
ORIGINAL: celebrindal
Actually I was kinda thinking about that myself, why didn't the developers factor in the monsoon's in the southern hemispheres, similar to winter effects. The reason why I ask is December was the start of the nice weather down there and waiting til summer as you suggested would have been terrible for the Japs to have invaded places. (Its one of the big reasons it was '43 before the yanks started doing anything in the pacific)
ahh... nice. i too hope this can be implemented somehow
RE: The Spanish Gambit
It would be a lot tougher if the Germans were compelled to attack Spain from ex-Vichy territory rather than, implausibly, from that tiny strip of France next door. I doubt they'd attack on such a narrow front, over a mountain range, no less.
Sorry if someone already mentioned this....
Sorry if someone already mentioned this....