Bugs and Issues

[K62_]

There has been a lot of discussion lately about house rules. I'm creating this thread to help the discussion, as a reference for the problems that the rules are trying to solve. Only problems that can be exploited by a player for their own advantage will be referenced. They are divided into two big categories: bugs and issues, the difference being that the issues are somewhat controversial. Each bug/issue will have a number and a name for easy reference. The list is not complete, so please post your additions in this thread and the first post will be edited to include them.

BUGS

B1: Special supply through renaming
A corps can be special supplied repeatedly if it is renamed.
B2: High command leader change
Stavka and OKH can be removed and placed again; this changes their leaders. However, if a player does this he will no longer receive new formations.
B3: High command circumventing
A circular order of command can be established among HQs with the Alt-H command, thus circumventing higher command completely.
B4: Free transfer
All units assigned to HQs with zero OPs can be transferred out at no cost.
B5 Factory delay reduction
A factory with a delay level over 4 can be converted, reducing the delay to 4.
B6 Fighter bomber repeated interdiction
If an interdiction mission is conducted, all fighter-bomber groups have their "u" marker removed and can be used again to interdict.
B11 Fast production change
Under computer control, a factory will upgrade its production with only a delay of 1, even if it has just been changed to the previous item. This makes it possible to change production in just 2 turns instead of 4 for items that can be upgraded to.
B12 Assigning enemy units
Players are able to change the HQ assignment of enemy units.
B13 Fake transport missions
Fighters gain more experience when escorting fake transport missions that on training. This also leaves them available for CAP and combat at the end of the turn.

ISSUES
I1: Mules
A corps can fight under the command of a different HQ than the one that gave it special supply.
I2: Fighting HQs
HQs can be stuffed up with units and placed on the front line for overstrength defense.
I3: Excessive production of heavy tanks
A player can produce unhistorically high numbers of heavy tanks and use them to great effect.
I4: Repeated interdiction
It's possible to bomb a single hex with single groups of bombers, to great effect, especially if combined with B6 above.
I5: Isolation at low cost
Small formations can be placed in mobile corps sent to cut the enemy's lines of supply.
I6: Fast infantry
Mobile corps with few mobile divisions and a lot of infantry can plot 5 and will restore their readiness quickly, especially during German blitz supply
I7: Minor allies in the west
The German player can send minor allied formations to fronts they could never have fought on.
I8: Naval transport
Units can be sent or retrieved from a city in naval supply using rail transfer.
I9: Exclusive air supply
An isolated corps can still advance and attack if it is well supplied from the air.
I10: Airfield vulnerability
With only two exceptions, airfields can be hit anywhere on the map, even at great distances.
I11: Overproduction of a single type
Some items are very powerful in the game and players will produce many more of them than was historically the case. Some of the problems of these items are not reflected in the game though (e.g. the He177 had very unreliable engines).
I12: Finnish politics
Finland's war aims were limited and their troops wouldn't have attacked Leningrad or advanced very far within the USSR.
I13: High readiness shattering
The Soviets in the summer of '41 and the Germans during the blizzard of the same year shatter easily at high readiness levels. The problem is supposed to be fixed for the Germans with v3.3
I14: Tanks in hard terrain
Units can move through mountains and unfrozen swamps without losing speed.
I15: Extremely long marches
Divisions can be moved from one end of the map to the other without using rail points if all the corps they pass through are special supplied.

The list is not complete, you're welcome to bring additions.

[m39 white death]

K62...great job. I thought I knew it all and you suprised me! Obviously, an unscrupulous player can utilize some or all of these bugs and tricks to obliterate an opponent. In fact, there are so many ways to cheat in this game that you really need to restrict your play to guys who you know to be honest. I think there are many honest opponents out there but there are also many who define who they are as a person by winning, and their ego simply can't allow them to lose. I like to compete against guys who enjoy the game and the challenge, and winning takes a back seat. I've played over 50 games of WIR and I've never once replayed a turn. My record? Probably equal numbers of wins and losses, and I'm perfectly ok with that. When I win, I try to teach the guy some strategy and tactics so he'll play better next time. When I lose, I hope to get the same from the victor. This game is absolutely fantastic when you have two honest guys of equal ability slugging it out. It is a gem.

[JagdFlanker]

B2 is not actually a bug - never tried with OKH, but if you remove stalin from STAVKA all ground reinforcements coming into STAVKA and RGVK are immediatly halted for the remainder of the game. that means if you remove stalin on the first turn of 1941 the soviets have to play the remainder of the game with only the divisions, etc they start with (a loss of over 200 divisions!) i actually did this in a game once with M39 and i had to give up in may 1942 because i didn't even have enough units to form even a full double front line! needless to say i now have no problem with stalin being in charge of some of my battles!

B5 is worse than what you have described it as - if say the soviets rail out a T-34 factory, their best bet is to first change the factory to BT-7, then rail it to the urals. it's supposed to take 12 weeks for the factory to come back online, but on the next turn the BT-7 will have upgraded to the T-34, and it will start producing it NEXT TURN!! this works in any factory upgrade situation for both sides, unless the unit you want has nothing previous that upgrades to it.

[K62_]

All right I tested and you were right about B2. I still consider it a bug though. The text for B2 has been expanded and B11 has been added, courtesy of Flanker Leader [&o]

[JagdFlanker]

here's another bug:

StuG Bn's may not be manually upgraded to StuG IIIg


here are "issues" which can be fixed by using the editor:

Ju-87b factories can’t be manually upgraded to Ju-87d (can be fixed by moving the unit's location in the aircraft database, but does require major editing as you have to also point all Ju-87 wings and the factory to the new Ju-87 location in the aircraft database)

Pz-II ikon is not used (it uses the M13/40 ikon - all you have to do is go in the editor and change it's ikon from 1 to zero)

marder II uses the marder III ikon (marder II ikon is there but not used)

Fw-190F uses Fw-190A ikon (it's ikon is unused as well)

there's likely 1 or 2 more but i can't remember them at the top of my head...


there are a couple issues that crop up only when using the editor:

Move inf/at/arty to rear of the tank database - all the tank/aircraft ikons displayed when you single click on a unit are displayed in the order they are in the database. an unfortunate thing about that is that the inf/AT/arty units in the AFV database are situated directly behind the default 3.3 units, so if you want to add extra units (as possum did), those ikons appear after the inf/AT/arty ikons in the map screen, which looks "messy". however, the real problem is that any AFV's that appear after the inf/AT/arty in the database cannot be manually upgraded in any Bn once they are deployed! those who play possum know what i'm talking about - you may not manually upgrade the Pz-II or the PzJg-47 because they are in the database behind the inf/AT/arty! so there's about 30 extra AFV slots that are sort of "wasted". aircraft are in a seperate database so they may added to at will (ikons are the limit there)

[DavidFaust]

This is the best way to discuss the problems of this great game in a attempt to finalise and standardise the rules once and for all.

But I would hate to see the length of the rules as there is so many issues/bugs

[Elefantinho]

Some minor things I noticed in version 3.3, I'm not sure if they all are bugs or even issues:
- A player is able to change the HQ assignment of enemy units.
- Early in the '41 campaign: when changing a Soviet "mechanized corps" to a normal corps, the mechanized corps is not available in the corps pool (F5) afterwards.
- Early in the '41 campaign: the Soviet 88th and 89th Armies appear as Shock Armies on the map. Using EDITWIR I noticed that the three "Mobile Groups" of version 3.2 that appear later in the campaign have been replaced in version 3.3 by the 6th Tank Army and 88th and 89th Armies. So maybe this has been just designed like this. I don't know, since normally I never survive that long as Soviets [:(]

[K62_]

Added B12 courtesy of Elefantinho. [&o]

A matter of general policy: to keep the list shorter, only problems that are exploitable by some player for their own advantage will be included. For instance, not being able to upgrade the StugIIIb manually is a bug, but nobody can gain an unfair advantage using it. The main concern in this thread is what people can do to decrease others' enjoyment of the game. Sometimes they will do it because they don't mind cheating in order to win, but often they might not mean it. For instance, I was using naval transport regularly because I thought it was realistic, but one day an opponent got upset with me because he considered it a bug. Now I'm asking beforehand. This is a general problem, at least with the "issues".

[DavidFaust]

I would like to hear players thoughts about these bugs/issues

I base my thoughts in a attempt to keep the game as simple as possible and with the fewest number of rules that have the most depth.

I will need to finish this at a later date

B1: Special supply through renaming

Both sides can do this so I would not suggest a rule to counter this bug

B2: High command leader change

B3: High command circumventing

I do not think this should be alowed as both sides have to answer to someone at a higher level. This also effects play balance

B4: Free transfer

This should not be done. There is no real reason to do it. Both sides have enough HQ's and op points in the game.

B5 Factory delay reduction

This should not be done.

B6 Fighter bomber repeated interdiction

Limmit the number of times a HQ can preform missions

B7 Repeated attacks stop

No rule can fix this

B8 Half-way saving

B9 Restarting the turn

B10 Editors

If you have to resort to this, why would you play?

B12 Assigning enemy units

Should not be alowed

I1: Mules

I think more flavor is added to the game if this is not used.

I2: Fighting HQs

I strongly dislike this tactic and all attempts to setup a rule to counter it have failed.

I3: Excessive production of heavy tanks

I would have no problem with this rule if heavy tanks were priced better.
This ussue can be simple fixed with rules.

I4: Repeated interdiction

Needs to be limmited

I5: Isolation at low cost

I have no problem with using this tactic or it being used. Mobile troops must make up the bulk of the divisions if them are plotted 5 hexes

I6: Fast infantry

As above

I7: Minor allies in the west

This has no effect on the game

I8: Naval transport

I have no problem with this

I9: Exclusive air supply

No problem with this

I10: Airfield vulnerability

Limmit what HQ's can be attacked and how many times

I11: Overproduction of a single type

I12: Finnish politics

I like to restrict the Finnish to give Lenningrad a fighting chance

I13: High readiness shattering

Nothing can be done to stop this

I14: Tanks in hard terrain

I have read a great book on the problems of moving armored formations through these type of terrain. This game no way reflects the troubles of moving through such terrain let alone supplying them through it !!

[Agent Smith]

There is a "railroad bug" - in some cases (possibly when you use totally exactly 5000 rail points) you got 65000 railpoints.

[DavidFaust]

Im not sure about this but I think there is a bug when stuka's are shot down and being reported as fighters losses. (no time to play test this)
I have noticed this in a possum game that im playing.

Plotting with armored korps when using static attacks can fail to link up all attacking korps. This is more so when armor moves.

Plotting with certain armor korps can sometimes lead to plotting failers as some korps move before they are ment too thus blocking off korps. Or others too late and getting there orders cancelled. Some attacks will never work because of the number of the korps and there position on the map.

bug b1 can also be used to rebuild shattered divisions. This is very helpful for rebuilding shattered Soviet divisions in 41.

[loveman2]

[X(]

Far too many bugs in this game for people to exploit , perhaps only honest players are hard to find who wont result to bending rules to play this great game.

[JagdFlanker]

this is not really a bug that is an advantage to one side or the other i guess, but i can mention for those curious that i am almost positive that if you use F/B's as escorts they will drop bombs on every mission, meaning that you could theoretically send in, say, 5 attacks with the same HQ and on every mission F/B's escorting will add their bombs to the fray. i noticed this with germany, but i'm sure it's the same for the sov's too...

germany surrendered 60 years ago today, thank god!! put this on your desktop (you'l have to manually stretch it) and remember, if it were 1944 right now,

THIS COULD HAVE BEEN YOU!!

[DavidFaust]

I use F/b's as escorts and create air HQ's that have no korps assigned to them. The sole use of this air HQ is to support Pz korps in softening up the enemy before they get attacked. If for any reason I think that my Pz korps will not retreat the enemy in combat, I assign that korps to the air HQ. In well over 15 games my pz korps have only ever failed to reach there objective 2 times!!!!! ( this does not include coups)
note.... All games have had a 3 air attack limmit.

To ensure I get the best results, I only use 1 type of bomber and have them at full strength.
This formula is also used to ensure that Pz divisions are kept up to strength.
As this air HQ does not have korps assigned to it, less bombers are damaged causing greater damage when they attack.

I have destroyed many players with ease using this tactic to the point that the game is not worth playing. Why do I share these tactics with you? This is simple, to level out the playing field and to ensure that forces are used to the best of there abality or until rules are setup to counter them.

My view is that the use of fighter bombers supporting airmissions every turn is a major fault in the game and no Soviet player can hold there own against it. Even with 3 air limmits restrictions I have never failed to capture Moscow and Lenningrad. Even playing possumv6 I have gotten the same results.

[Agent Smith]

As far as i understand, there are two facts:

1. Fighter-bombers escorting bombers actually bomb target too (posted by Flanker Leader)
2. Fighter-bombers can perform multiple air missions in a single turn becouse their "u" mark is removed after another airgroup in the same HQ performs an "interdict" mission (posted by K62).

The fact #2 is clearly a bug and must not be used.
The fact #1 is not a bug IMHO, but it rases questions:
a)Do escorting fighter air groups bomb target too?
b) If escorting fighter-bomber and fighter(possible) airgroups bomb target - what is the difference between "escort" and "interdict" air missions for them?

[JagdFlanker]

a)no, only F/B's
b)i guess if you do any interdiction or airfield strike which involves 1 ground attack and/or bomber wing, any F/B's which escort it will also drop bombs, even though they are on escort. so if you have a HQ with say 5 F/B wings on escort and 5 bomber wings, you could conceivably do 5 seperate airstrikes with 1 bomber wing each, and the 5 F/B wings will add their bombs to the strike everytime. then, if you really want to go crazy, you could then change 1 F/B wing at a time to interdict and get several more airstrikes with all participating F/B's dropping their bombs in each.

please keep in mind this is something i NOTICED from game 1 and havn't actually tested to make sure what i was seeing is true. but if i noticed something as a beginner to the game it sure looks like that is the case...

if it IS the case, i think a limit on how many airstrikes any HQ can do should be implimented - but someone confirm the facts first please!

[Agent Smith]

Here is a set of home rules which should cover all bugs and issues.

1. A corps can only change HQ before it has been special supplied (Bug #1- special supply is limited by Operational Points in a single HQ and Issue #1).
2. Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Corps/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Corps/HQ may be air attacked (interdict or bomb AF) more than 3 times per turn. Any airgroup can fly only one airmission per turn (Bug #6, Issue #4).
3. A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it (Issue #5, Issue #6).
4. HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in (Issue #12).
5. Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn. Destination hex must be a port (Issue #8).
6. Players cannot change a structure of command and Hitler\Stalin leadership (Bug #2, Bug #3).
7. Players can change a production of no more than one tank and\or airplane factory per turn (my personal favorite). Players cannot change a production of factory with delay of more than 4 (Bug #5).
8. Usage of bugs #8, #9, #10, #11 (players has to set “human production upgrade control”), #12, #13 (65000 railroad points) is cheating.
9. Finnish forces cannot attack (but can bomard) Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with minimum 3 division sized units. If Leningrad is captured, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel (Issue 12).


Unruled Bugs and issues:
B#4: It is generally bad to have a HQ with zero Oprerational Points. So I think this bug cannot be abused.
B#7: This bug is out of human control.
I#3: See I#11.
I#7: I see no problem here.
I#9: I see no problem here.
I#10: I have never expirience this problem.
I#11: (and I#3) Mono type production is not very historical, but the reasons for multi-type producing were: 1) Nobody knew the real “stats” of new equipment. 2) Lobbies of various groups existed in both countries. 3) Concept of main battle tank was not introduced.
As we are beyond these restrictions...
I#13: Just play around it.
I#14: Yes, tanks and mechanised divisions can move through mountains and swamp without losing speed. Terrain is not a barrier for troops, only enemy resistance is (as some famous soviet generak said).
I#15: You have to spend a lot of Operational points for such march.

[DavidFaust]

7. Players can change a production of no more than one tank and\or airplane factory per turn (my personal favorite). Players cannot change a production of factory with delay of more than 4 (Bug #5).

Just an idea on this rule. Players can not change the production of a factory if it has a delay.

note. If a factory is bombed it should not make its task easier to upgrade to a new model

2. Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Corps/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Corps/HQ may be air attacked (interdict or bomb AF) more than 3 times per turn. Any airgroup can fly only one airmission per turn (Bug #6, Issue #4).

Have you played with this rule before? if so what are your thoughts about its play balance?

[Agent Smith]

1.

Players can not change the production of a factory if it has a delay.

note.

I think it is good rule and nice wording.

2. I am playing with this rule right now. I have no special thoughts about it right now.

[K62_]

ORIGINAL: Agent Smith

There is a "railroad bug" - in some cases (possibly when you use totally exactly 5000 rail points) you got 65000 railpoints.

Can you give more informaton on how to duplicate this bug please? E.g. start campaign '41, do actions X, Y, Z.