Allied naval nonmovement very frustrating!!

[RodentDung]

I'm playing allies for the first time in an email game but find the navy can almost never move even when next to enemy fleet. I build almost nothing but supplies in both america and UK every turn and still almost nothing can move every turn. Also, I keep replacing transports that are sunk to keep original supply lines intact and move trucks to needed places like england and egypt.

I've played Germany and Japan and done lots of naval activity and had no problems. Is it usually this hard to make the UK navy move? Should the allies build nothing but supply for the early years? Problem is I spend so much production on supplies that now he is trying to take over English mainland so I can't make units to defend it and my navy can't move up to attack his though I have more ships and should win.

Maybe I should only play axis side [:(]

[Grotius]

Have you built transports to bring your supply to your fleets at sea? You need supply in the same province, or in an adjacent province, before the fleets will move. In essence, your transports have to follow your fleets -- and have transport capacity to handle the supply requirements of your fleets.

It's different as Italy/Germany because those fleets rarely venture far from shore, so they partake of land-based supply. And Japan's fleet tends not to venture far afield either, except perhaps for Pearl Harbor.

[Grifman]

Like he said, building supply isn't enough, you need a transport link to get the supplies to them - and you need enough transport capacity to move the supplies. A one transport per sea area might not work if you need alot of supplies.

[RodentDung]

I have a big problem that my light fleets cannot hurt German subs so he has 4 subs going around sinking transports for free every turn except one spent retorping. My light fleets followed them to try attacking but never hit and only use up the little supply I can produce each turn with such low industry points so my main fleets cannot move at all. I'm putting points on ASW but it will take a long time to get ASW to 2 cause I can't afford more than a few points on tech now.

I am stuck between a rock and hard place. If I ignore the subs to save supply, then I will lose about 3 transports every turn and there's no way I can make 3 transports a turn cause I need to build occasional infantry to guard the homeland if there is manpower available and America is only making supplies with occasional ground unit to counter a mainland invasion so the low industry and almost no manpower will not allow 3 ships produced per turn. I am surprised people say Axis are guaranteed to lose without the end date to save them. I think Axis are the stronger side to play cause at least you get good industry and at least a little manpower to use.

[RodentDung]

Maybe my problem is timing. When German subs sink my transports and then on my turn I send in new transports to fill up the convoy links, do I have to wait a turn before those convoy replacements become effective?

As the allies, I feel like an old lady using a featherduster to try and fight off a big mean doberman which is eating her biscuits. [:@]

[Grifman]

ORIGINAL: RodentDung


Maybe my problem is timing. When German subs sink my transports and then on my turn I send in new transports to fill up the convoy links, do I have to wait a turn before those convoy replacements become effective?

I think so, but someone else probably needs to confirm that.

That said, what year is it? You pretty much need to research ASW for your light fleets from day one - and I do it for heavy bombers also because they have range, can't get shot down. If you get behind - like it sounds like you have, it can be hard to catch up.

[Uncle_Joe]

New transports in the chain function instantly. You sometimes have to manually move a supply to where you need them just to get it 'woken up' though.

Like Grifman said, if you didnt research ASW early on and he has tech'ed up his Uboats, you are probably already dead (sorry). ASW is THE most important research for the WAllies in the early game. If you start researching it on turn 1, he might have 1 or at most 2 turns before you catch up and can kill any Uboats left at sea.

If its already into 41 and you havent started researching ASW, I think it might be a good plan to either restart (if your opponent doesnt mind) or else concede that the game is lost and spend the rest of it just learning the ins and outs of naval operations and supply movement.

[RodentDung]

Alright thanks Uncle Joe. I did plan to tech up ASW from the start but I think I didn't put enough on it cause I spent a couple turns only building soldiers to prevent invasion of home islands which he was obviously building up for cause of no africa fight and nothing on the Russian border. I guess the allies is like balancing a house of cards to avoid a total collapse and I put a card in the wrong spot.

[Grifman]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

New transports in the chain function instantly. You sometimes have to manually move a supply to where you need them just to get it 'woken up' though.

But that's only for supply, right? Don't they have to be there a turn to move units?

[Grotius]

Nope, they don't have to be there a turn to move units. They work instantly. The U-Boats can wipe the Atlantic of your transports, but your still free in your turn to deplay a line of transports and ship units and supply over 'em to the limit of their transport capacity.

And yes, ASW is the single most important thing to research early. In fact, ASW on light fleets AND aircraft is probably optimal, since aircraft require only 1 supply to move and aren't vulnerable to sub counterattacks. Also, you CAN catch up to some extent; my opponent did, even though I jumped out to a big lead in sub tech over his ASW. But you'll lose a lot of transports in the meantime. Heck, even with ASW, you'll lose a lot of transports. Just build a ton of 'em.

[RodentDung]

My quagmire was made worse by me ordering a 2 or 3 extra light fleets at the start of the game which I think increased the ASW tech cost. Also, after I built 5 infantry in the English homeland which were vital to stopping his invasion he just attempted and repaired some ships hit by subs, my manpower was all gone so I could only build a couple new transports. A real house of cards it is!

[Uncle_Joe]

Thats OK, he'll feel that way when he needs Fighters and Flak to defend against WAllied bombers, and Tanks and Arty to defend against Russian hordes![;)]

[RodentDung]

When do you build bombers and increase fighter range tech while working on a ground invasion force? I wanted to focus on ground units and do an insertion in europe somewhere as well as defend Australia area so industry was stretched to the max in America with the supply crunch causing huge problems.

[Uncle_Joe]

Personally, I dont build too much of an invasion force until I have air superiority over France, the Low Countries, and the sea zones in the area. Until then, I build Bombers and Fighters and tech them up.

A few ground forces are needed for a threat, but the air units should be used to kill off the troops along the coast or to smash the resources in range. Trust me, you'll be able to afford to replace lost aircraft easier than he can. Even if Germany starts to narrow the gap in production, they can never hope to equal the Pop of the WAllies AND Russia.

The US can be building Bombers and Fighters and teching them up before entering the war. On the turn of entry, move them to the UK and then start having fun. He cant have Fighters and Flak massed everywhere (or else he isnt doing much in Russia). Use your airpower to systematically erase his coastal defenses (requiring more troops to be built fill the holes). Work over his resources and factories in France (and if he is careless, in Germany).

If he isnt careful to continuously re-garrison the areas you bomb out, you can drop a quick landing forces there to make it a real pain to take back and to easily destroy all the infrastructure.

But again, if you are way behind in the Battle of the Atlantic, then you are already fighting a VERY uphill battle by needing to replace Light Fleets and Transports rather than building up to take the initiative in late 42 or early 43.

[RodentDung]

Thanks again Uncle Joe. I will continue our game despite the logistical mess I am cooperating with the U-boats in creating [:o] My game plan was originally (dembe stop reading at this point please, at least wait until after I've finished crushing you [:D]) to go all out in a north african land campaign and land in southern europe in a tender spot instead of doing a bombing campaign so my opponent wastes resources on AA defences. I'm too new at the game to put up any tricky feints to ensure he commits to the AA wastage. Also, he is pushing hard to invade England and already has the French coasts bristling with well-armed wehrmacht material so I only did one bombing run so far. This dembe dude is getting good at the game and covers himself well.

I have a habit of doing nonstandard stuff because of playing chess too much and trying to unhinge book openings. This can lead me down dangerous paths but I think it is best for me to develop effective alternatives. Unfortunately for this first attempt at playing the allies, I'm reduced to doing logistical crisis management. The German U-boats are most probably doing me more good than harm by helping to clean up the mess I made. [:D] I can't wait for the Eastern front war when things degrade into a nice, simple slugfest to give the old woman with her featherduster a chance to catch her breath. [:)]

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: RodentDung

...
I have a habit of doing nonstandard stuff because of playing chess too much and trying to unhinge book openings. This can lead me down dangerous paths but I think it is best for me to develop effective alternatives. ...

That's the beauty of this game. There are so many options to try. Most people try to find the one way that works and nerver try anything else. The fun is in experimentation. The whole point of wargaming IMHO.[8D]

By the way, love the "old lady" analogy.[:D][:D][:D]

[Scott_WAR]

Build supplies and tech with USA, build naval and air power with UK, and build ground units with USSR.

WA should be teching ASW first, then bomber and fighter advances. USSR should be making their tanks and artillery as highly teched as possible.

China should NOT try to push Japan back, but instead should attempt to make it as hard as possible for Japan to advance into china.

Remember one thing also, Germany can hardly afford to invade UK. For the majority of the game he needs air units, he needs ground units, what he does not need is transports, but i he plans to invade UK, he will need more than he has to begin with, and will waste time and resources building units that he will more than likely never use very effectively. Also, Germanys transport have an amphib ratring of 3, which means he needs 2 transports to move 1 infantry, 4 to move a tank, so its really unlikely he will invade UK, as it will require quite a few transports to make it have ANY chance of working.

[ratprince]

I would say that Germany does not "mecessarily" need transports to invade England.

A couple paratroops and an overwhelming air power (which is easy enough to get) can crush a british defense of scotland or england and a couple paratroops can capture. Then, with the meager transports you have send in the flood of troops and enough supplys to last "awhile" in case the british navy crushes the fleet. This will pretty much ensure that britain is not a threat for a looooong while. Plus, it eliminates the air base for American bombers.

I do not think sea lion is a wasted gambit. In fact, if it is feasible in your game, I think it is a must!

later

Mike

[Uncle_Joe]

Mike,

Do you wait for your Fighters to have increased Range before using the air forces to flatten England? What tends to be the time-table for a Sea Lion in your games.

For me, I havent done it (or had it attempted) in a human vs human game yet. I've done it against the AI a few times, but it rarely makes an effective defense.

Finally, have you seen WAllied player manage to win a game after a successful Sea Lion or it pretty much a done-deal at that point (as long as you dont screw the pooch later on)?

[ratprince]

Hey Joe!

You have to get fighters to range 2. That takes (from recollection) min of 2 seasons if you get lucky on the random research chance, or 3 seasons otherwise. That puts you at winter 41 usually. By this time I can have 3-5 tac bombers added and a heavy and a paratroop. These units can also be used against russia to great effectiveness so are not really "wasted" production. Hitting Scotland (or England) with 5-7 Tac bombers, 5 fighters and a couple paradrops (with bombs dropped as well) can pretty much level england or scotland unless they put up a serious defense. Usually, I play a feint into africa by actually landing troops the turn or so before this to draw off troops. Then a quick uboat campaign to knock out the transport link from around the world and Voila! open invasion time! (note: I usually hold the airpower in central europe until time, this way that cant see the masses preparing)

I have taken england twice in a PBEM. Once, I took it, was kicked out and took it again. In that one I am now a bit screwed as I have no supplies and cant get any there. However, England is pretty much smashed in other respects. In the other game, it resulted in eventual axis auto victory. So...I would say, based on my games, that it has serious benefits and little downside (i.e. the units are usable elsewehre)


HOpe that helps!

Later

Mike