Air spotting of subs in v1.5 - too easy ??

[asdicus]

Overall I am very pleased with the new patch so far and I would like to thank matrix for continuing to support the game.

However the %chance of air spotting of subs from naval searches has gone up and this is not a good thing. In my new pbm game almost every jap sub around pearl is spotted every turn by only say 30 odd seaplanes. Before 1.5 only a few subs were spotted each turn. I have tested this with several game starts vs the ai and the subs get spotted far more often than they should. The result is often multiple air attacks and yes subs are dying.

This is making life impossible for subs near any base and remember subs rely on stealth and surprise to attack successfully. Standard procedure for any navy subs near land would be to remain submerged during the day and surface only at night to charge batteries etc. How does a navy search plane without radar spot a surfaced sub at night or a submerged sub in the day? Impossible except with a full moon and a lot of luck. Note the water is deep so you are not going to see a submerged sub by its 'underwater shadow'. Good 10cm air search radar for planes is not available yet for the usa. If air search worked as in 1.5 in the atlantic in early 1942 the usa would sink every german sub off the usa east coast in days - no operation drumbeat now.

As I mentioned earlier I appreciate the work matrix puts into patches but in this case I think they should look again at the air search routines. Opinions ??

[2Stepper]

You know? Having observed this, I have to agree that pointing out locations for all probably isn't good. Methinks something got tweeked there. I've run about 8 test turns so far to just see how the opening phases of the war start out and each time the whole array of subs for the Japs are observed. Any one else had a thought on this? [&:]

[Banquet]

I noticed this too.. playing US (I've never played Japan) vs AI I thought either the AI has been tweaked and they're moving a lot more subs to Pearl, or I'm spotting them a lot easier.

Ron won't be happy (for a change! [:D] )

[kokubokan25]

And not only the spotting is very increased in 1.5!!
In my game Head to Head, the average number of allied sub attacks (with success) in a month was between 4 and 8. After the 1.5 upgrading, the allied subs attacks was increased to twice. In a week the japanese have lost three tankers!!!

However, the number of japanese subs attacks was the same. This mean almost inexistent!!
Poor mikado!

[Knavey]

Think they fixed a bug in the air ASW routine that was lowering the chance of spotting a sub.

[asdicus]

Ok my pbm game has progressed a few turns and this air spotting/subs issue is becoming quite a pain. I mention this in a polite way to matrix because 99 % of the game is great but subs are having a very hard time just staying alive on station.

Around/near Pearl the jap subs are moving around and staying in deep water. Nevertheless 90% of them are being spotted twice every turn and there are literally dozens of air attacks on them. All from around 20 pby and say a dozen floatplanes.

Around the philippines the usa subs are suffering almost as much. They are being hounded by a few ann's and floatplanes from cruisers but still many say 50% of the subs are being air spotted each turn. I say again how can a plane with no radar spot a sub which tactically will spend all the daylight hours submerged ?

If I were to guess on this I would say subs are now being treated as permanently on the surface ie the game will not let them stay dived. The spotting routines seem to be similar in effect to spotting lone surface ships.

Note I am playing a brand new v1.5 game. I can send a save to someone if it is of use but to be honest just play a few turns from the start of scen 15 and you will spot the problem. This problem can only get worse as the war progresses ie imagine life in 1943 when aircover is more comprehensive. Please matrix look into this.

[sadja]

If your opponent does ASW much more ahistorical then you will get spot reports. Everbody is getting better with leaders and making ASW TF's. If you leave 30 subs around PH then you deserve to get smacked. I have put 100 + planes on ASW or naval search(which by the way has a chance to spot subs if flown low enough) and spot Allied subs a bunch. I have also placed 4 ASW TFs in 1 hex after spotting 2 subs and it took 8 days(4turns) to even hit them. We have a house rule limit ASW TF to 8 or 10 ships I forgot which.

The sub forces suffered the highest death rate than any other service including the marines. When a sub was lost most likely everybody died. 30 day patrols were very hard on crews, and we use them like robots. Out 30-40day's back in port a week to repair system damage and back out again. I've only played 2 turns (4days), Ive moved all my subs except a group I missed around PH and only the PH ones were spotted on the 1st turn, I moved them,the second turn more were spotted but they were different ones. I moved them sometimes only 1 hex which resets the detectablity. Subs can take some extra work but if you leave them they die.

Sadja

[Onime No Kyo]

I have been plating as the Allies against the AI since the game was released. As far as I can tell, the rate of successful allied attacks has always been high. The AI spots them, but seldom attacks. On the other hand, most of the ships they hit, dont sink, unless they are attacked again at some point on their way to repair.

[Halsey]

I like the advanced spotting. Now my subs will train up faster, because they get to shoot down recon planes.[:D]

[jwilkerson]

This is a rounda-bout-way of starting up another ASW thread ... but I'm not bitin' this time ... would rather do something else this week [:D]

[Halsey]

Some threads just never die.[:D]

[asdicus]

I am not surprised that there are many different opinions on this subject - after all forums are designed for debate - however I do not agree with some of the comments made.

I was really trying to show that things have changed quite radically on sub spotting from v1.40 to v1.50 - so it is not really an old 'asw' issue but a new 'spotting' issue. It has been suggested the subs are not moving enough - believe me there are moving around every turn !

I would like someone to provide me with a sensible and reasoned answer that explains how aircraft with no radar can spot a surfaced submarine at night - remembering that subs do not move around on the surface in daytime near airbases. One wonders what happens when the usa subs get air search radar - will this allow them to dive before air attack (as it should) ?

[hithere]

I would like someone to provide me with a sensible and reasoned answer that explains how aircraft with no radar can spot a surfaced submarine at night

i though that the search routies only ran during the day. a sumerged sub is not that hard to spot in the daytime. You can see even modern subs at a hundred feet in decent weather. The japanese subs could only dive 200 or 300 feet deep at the bottom of the boat. And also japanese subs were pretty large for the day. Whether that is why they are being seen now, I don't know

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

I am not surprised that there are many different opinions on this subject - after all forums are designed for debate - however I do not agree with some of the comments made.

I was really trying to show that things have changed quite radically on sub spotting from v1.40 to v1.50 - so it is not really an old 'asw' issue but a new 'spotting' issue. It has been suggested the subs are not moving enough - believe me there are moving around every turn !

I would like someone to provide me with a sensible and reasoned answer that explains how aircraft with no radar can spot a surfaced submarine at night - remembering that subs do not move around on the surface in daytime near airbases. One wonders what happens when the usa subs get air search radar - will this allow them to dive before air attack (as it should) ?

Bercause the model's no good. Almost all the models are no good. And tweaking doesn't seem to help.

You should put this in a letter to Gary. Maybe he'll come back and do something about it. Don't hold your breath. [8D]

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: hithere

............................


i though that the search routies only ran during the day. a sumerged sub is not that hard to spot in the daytime. You can see even modern subs at a hundred feet in decent weather. The japanese subs could only dive 200 or 300 feet deep at the bottom of the boat. And also japanese subs were pretty large for the day. Whether that is why they are being seen now, I don't know

It is not only the Japanese subs which are more easily spotted. I though my opponent suddenly swarmed Japan with subs, but apparently they have been there all along and I only now, with 1.5, can spot them more frequently. My ASW boys now run out to greet them more frequently and my ASW forces are getting sunk more frequently.[:(]

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

You know? Having observed this, I have to agree that pointing out locations for all probably isn't good. Methinks something got tweeked there. I've run about 8 test turns so far to just see how the opening phases of the war start out and each time the whole array of subs for the Japs are observed. Any one else had a thought on this? [&:]

I too agree with this observation. Suddenly every Jap and Allied Sub can be seen on the screen. Almost makes the game unplayable from the submarine warfare point of veiw... Whatever was fixed need to be reexamined.........

[:-]

[ChezDaJez]

i though that the search routies only ran during the day. a sumerged sub is not that hard to spot in the daytime. You can see even modern subs at a hundred feet in decent weather.

The only time a submerged sub is easy to spot from the air is when you have a sandy bottom and clear, calm, shallow water such as found in the Carribean Sea or parts of the South Pacific. The sub also needs to be near the surface, not much more than periscope depth and the weather needs to be sunny. Also the best altitude to spot a submerged sub is about 10,000 feet. Any lower and wave action interferes too much with visuals, any higher and the sub is just too small to make out. The aircraft also must practically fly directly over the sub in order to spot it.

We used to cheat on ASW exercises flying against our subs on the Autec range near Saint Thomas in the Carribean. We would climb up to 10k feet and man the observation windows. Pretty soon someone would yell "there he is." We would punch out a sonobuoy and go screaming down to 500 feet to begin our attack. Used to get some pretty good attacks off too until they got wise and limited us to 5k feet altitude. Then we had to get our kills the honest way.

Chez

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

You know? Having observed this, I have to agree that pointing out locations for all probably isn't good. Methinks something got tweeked there. I've run about 8 test turns so far to just see how the opening phases of the war start out and each time the whole array of subs for the Japs are observed. Any one else had a thought on this? [&:]

I too agree with this observation. Suddenly every Jap and Allied Sub can be seen on the screen. Almost makes the game unplayable from the submarine warfare point of veiw... Whatever was fixed need to be reexamined.........

[:-]

Since 1.5 arrived my ALlied opponent has cleared the Bay of Bengal of all but one or two of my subs. There seems to be a hit on one every turn from a B-17.

[asdicus]

I am glad to see the growing number of different comments and posters on this topic. If people want matrix to re-examine the air spotting routines they need to make their views known - so please if you are surprised at the high air detection rates of your subs in 1.5 then say so. I do not know if any new patches are planned but this issue needs a full public debate.

chezdajez - thank you for adding your professional opinion from your asw work in the military. I always thought spotting a submerged sub from the air was a '1 in a million' chance. Certainly in ww2 records show that just flying a aircraft around over the sea might deter subs from surface running but it would not find and kill them without other electronics aids.

In my own pbm game sub warfare has been almost totally spoiled imho. I could live with the potent asw etc but there is no way for a player houserule to tone down air spotting unless you stop air searches as well. At pearl my japanese opponent has now pulled out every sub from a 5 hex radius of the port. Less than 20 pby were spotting and attacking almost every sub every turn(yes they were moving around) - from an impossibly huge area of ocean. Near the philippines a smaller number of japanese floatplanes and vals are spotting nearly all the usa subs and bombing them with effect. By 1943 with more planes and airbases no allied sub is going to stay unspotted in the dutch east indies or near japan. The sub element of the game is important - it gives you the chance of a major blow to the enemy in his own backdoor. Sub attacks should be rarely lethal or successful but subs should be able to hide effectively from the air at this stage of the war.

I am most disappointed that no matrix staff or testers have replied to our comments. The points have been made in a polite and constructive way. This is a newly introduced feature of the 1.5 patch so surely a staff member can explain why this change was made ?

[Brausepaul]

I am very surprised to see the difference between 1.4 and 1.5...all of a sudden the ocean is covered with Japanese subs.[X(]