Do you want MLE ships?

[Tankerace]

In response to Pad152's comments, I'll go ahead and make a poll. Since it will be a little while before WPO is done anyway, I'll get players opinions.

I have designed War Plan Orange to accurately simulate naval war in the 1920's. This also accounts for mine warfare. In the 1920's, most naval minelayers were converted Cruisers (Japanese Tokiwa, US Chicago) or converted Merchantmen. They however, did not have tenders of any sort. They were primarily designed for short range work, laying defensive minefields off harbors, or in channels. Large Q ships, and Auxilliary cruisers, thanks to long range, could lay mines in convoy routes while preying on enemy convoys.

Now, what this means is mining will be more restricted than in WitP. As designed, the greatest area of mining will be in the South China Sea, and around Formosa. This is the "heart" of the game area, and most likely were the decisive battle would have taken place.

Mining in say, the Solomons and off New Guinea could be accomplished by minelayers operating out of Australia, but Japanese minelaying in this area would be limited.

Now, would you like MLE ships? In the 1920's they did not exist. However, if enough players want them, I will include a few for each side, so that mining can play a larger part.

Now, understand I will not allow them to be converted, but if players want them I will add a few. This is not to "take a step backward" in terms of mine warfare, but to realize that at this period of naval warfare, most minelaying operations occured 300 miles (5 hexes) or less from friendly bases. Minefields laid further out than that were done by submarine.

So, vote now, and let your voice be heard. *On this poll, I will take a majority vote, dependant if the vote in favor of MLE's is a significant number. I.e, if in say a week and a half it is 7 in favor, 5 against, then I will not allow MLEs. If the numbers are more like 30-10, then Ill probably add them.

Poll deadline is May 19th, that is 15 days from now.

Feel free to post comments, and expanded thoughts or ideas on the matter.

[33Vyper]

i vote no....

as you have said before Tanker you did not want to create the 'unhistorical'. You have kept all of the 'other' fantasy ships out.

As for how to mine....well that will just be another one of the things ppl have to learn

If anyone really wants them they can edit themselves to death....I know I will when I add the Germans [:D]

[Tankerace]

Well, my personal stance is to not add them in. The reason for this poll is if a large majority of players want them in, I will add a couple. But, only if a significant number of people want them in I will add a couple of ships.

That said, if the MLE's change the feel of the game too much, I will not add them in regardless. The objective I want of this game is plausible history, not balanced fantasy.

[Onime No Kyo]

I believe that you put a lot of time and effort into your research and have full confidence in your conclusions. It is a dead issue whether people want MLEs or not. There should be no discussion of pandering to public tastes.

[Iridium]

I agree, the more you balance a game the more bland it gets. You end up with something akin to almost every RTS where every side has similar units to counter one another...which is Boring!!![:@]

[Tankerace]

Well, that was the whole purpose of the poll, was to get a sampling of player input. Like I said, if there was a major outpouring of people wanting MLE's, I would add them in. But, unless this takes a major turn around, I think it is safe to assume that they won't be getting in (2 in favor, 8 against as I write this).

Just to be sure, I just reread all the entires for US and Japanese WWI ships, in both Conway's and Jane's. I looked through Navsource and the Naval Historical Center, Hell I even did a search on google. The only mention of a minelayer tender is a Pearl Harbor site called Oglala a Minelayer tender instead of a minelayer. In the references, I see tenders to submarines, torpedo boats, motor boats, subchasers, destroyers, seaplanes, repair ships, and on and on, and no tenders for minelayers. The closest thing was a tender to minesweepers, but no minelayers.

Hell, on a farce, I searched for MLE as a Naval Designation and came up with nothing.

So.... I think Pad was right, and MLE was something cooked up by 2by3 as a way to let mining happen at an unhistorical rate.

[Cmdrcain]

I took a look, there was a CM type for one ship:
http://www.historycentral.com/navy/Mine ... orIII.html

and
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/shi ... M/cm5.html

Plus some pages on Abbrevs:

http://www.lonesailor.org/ships.php

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_ships_list.htm


Of interest is there were a vast number of different minelayers also ML was later changed to mean something else, MM and others for mining:

MM Minelayer, Fleet
MMA Minelayer, Auxiliary
MMC Minelayer, Coastal
MMD Minelayer, Fast (formerly DM)
MMF Minelayer, Fleet

So perhaps MLE should be MM, or MMA, then there is the Terror, the first built for minelaying, later a tender designited CM

ML is now:

ML USCG; Motor Launch


I would guess MLE is a catchall of all types of ships used in WW II that supplied Minelaying ships
otherwise there would be a need for many more ship types.


Some things pertaining to WPO:

ACR Armored Cruiser
C Cruiser (prior to 1920)
CA Prior to 1931: Armored Cruiser
After 1931: Heavy Cruiser - a cruiser armed with guns 8" (20.3 cm) or larger

D Destroyer (prior to 1921)
DD Destroyer (after 1921)


Back to mine ships:

Mine Warfare Ships

ACM Auxiliary Minelayer
AM Minesweeper
AMc Coastal Minesweeper
AMc(U) Coastal Minesweeper (underwater locator)
CM Minelayer
CMc Coastal Minelayer
DM Light Minelayer (converted destroyer)
DMS High Speed Minesweeper (converted destroyer)
MCAC Air Cushion Mine Countermeasures Craft
MCD Mine Countermeasures Drone
MCM Mine Countermeasures Ship
MCS Mine Countermeasures Support Ship
MCT Mine Countermeasures Conversion Trainer
MHC Coastal Minehunter
MHI Inshore Minehunter
ML Minelayer
MSA Auxiliary Minesweeper
MSAC Air Cushion Minesweeper
MSC Coastal Minesweeper
MSD Drone Minesweeper
MSH Harbor Minesweeper
MSI Inshore Minesweeper
MSO Ocean Minesweeper
MSR River Minesweeper


Enjoy...

[Tankerace]

Thanks for all the info.

So perhaps MLE should be MM, or MMA, then there is the Terror, the first built for minelaying, later a tender designited CM

While Terror could probably be considered as an MLE, she wasn't built until 11 years after the end of War Plan Orange. Having looked through all the designations, and considering the USNs only minelayers at the time were the following:

Converted Cruisers: Baltimore, and San Franciso
Converted Liners: Aroostook (later a seaplane tender in WPO), Canandagua, Housatonic, Quinnesbury, Roanoake, Shawmut, and Black Hawk was a tender to minelayers. That was during WWI. By 1922, only Aroostock and Shawmut (later renamed Oglala) were retained, with Aroostook serving as a Seaplane tender, and Black Hawk as a destroyer tender.

For the Japanese side, the only minelayers included: 12 converted merchants (only about 6 of which were still MLs by 1922), 1 purpose built minelayer, and 2 converted cruisers. Not counting Q ships or Java class cruisers, that is a whopping 12 minelayers for all sides. Keep in mind, MLE's aren't really going to be necessary, because there just isn't a large amount of minelayers. Offensive minelaying in the Pacific in 1922 was a practical impossibility. In the Atlantic, a North Sea Barrage could effectively blokade the Hoschseeflotte. However, the amount of minelayers needed to blockade either the US or Japanese Navy is insane.

So, when voting, keep this in mind. Do you really want a fake MLE for about 6 Minelayers? The best you are going to do is lay defensive minefields, which don't require MLEs. Yes, you can build Auxilliary Cruisers and Commerce Raiders to lay mines, but because they are rated as CLs, they cannot take advantage of the MLE bonus.

[pad152]

Well all I ask is at lease give us (ok me[:)]) the ability to add them to the database.

If you not going to have MLE's then just what's the point of having mine layers or mine sweepers?[:-]

[DuckofTindalos]

Read the post immediately above.

[Tankerace]

I wouldagree wholeheartedly with your statement, except that history has shown that in the 1922, there were minelayers and minesweepers without tenders. Like I said, I would let the poll decide. All I am doing is pointing out history, and letting people judge.

[Tankerace]

I will add in an MLE class as an alternative, and users can add in ships if they so desire. That I have no problem doing, but officially, unless the poll results change dramatically, their will be no MLEs in official scenarios.

[doc smith]

No, keep it historical

[Tankerace]

It looks like the Nays carry the vote. 19 to 10, no MLE ships will be included in War Plan Orange. If a scenario editor can be used (such as michaelm's utilities, or even the stock editor) then players can freely add in the ships if they so choose.