Question about IS 2 and 122 mm gun

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 8:39 pm

IS 2 carried a 122 mm gun. When fully loaded, it has a total of 18 HE and 10 AP.
I was firing on a panther G using my last round of AP and clank that all I get. But when I managed to reduce my supression to get a second shot it destroyed it. Now according to the data, at a range of about 15 hexes or 750 yards, my HE penetration is only 41, how could I kill it by hitting on the frontal hull.

Now I was suprised by it perform, as such, I charge the rest of my IS 2 (3 left), They are also out of AP rounds on earlier enagement, I got alot of clank, clank on the rest of the panther G. Now without AP and using my HE, I got tons of boom boom boom and up to a lucky shot at 1200 yards or 24 hexes.

My question:
(1)Why the AP round perform lesser than the HE?
(2)Does the HE kill armour by the size of it warhead or what?
(3)The 41 penetration shown in the IS2 data is referring to what...?
<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 8:58 pm

The Panther have slope armor, so an AP round could sometime ricochet off. However, according to the book Soviet Armor 1919-1945 by Schiffer publishing, late war shortage of manganese caused GE steel to be exremely brittle, thus high explosive would cause crack and shattering, especially at the weld seam.

I don't think the game portray manganese shortage, but it do allows for damage by HE against hard target. The more technical part of your question would have to be answer by someone else <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 9:02 pm

The problem is that the AP are not the killer on panther tank, it turn out to be the HE....does the game has a different way to calculate killing for HE against armor.

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:35 am

Originally posted by Casper:
The problem is that the AP are not the killer on panther tank, it turn out to be the HE....does the game has a different way to calculate killing for HE against armor.

Were you firing from above? If that is true you had a small chance of getting a top hit, and the he penetration of the 122 should have be enough to crack that panther's top.

On the other hand if you are below and very close you have a chance at a bottom hit and it will punch thru there as well.

If the 122 penetrates it will kill.

There are two possibilities, anyone else have another?
thanks, John.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 3:39 pm

Originally posted by Casper:
The problem is that the AP are not the killer on panther tank, it turn out to be the HE....does the game has a different way to calculate killing for HE against armor.

This is from page 37 of the manual.
"HE is now tested against the basic armor thickness of hard targets, HEAT ammo against the "geometric thickness," and AP and HVAP are tested against a T/D-dependant "ballistic thickness" to determine the chance of penetration."

Now what the heck that means, don't ask me <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> However this is my guess.
1. HE's explosive power is compare directly to the armor thickness, disregard the slope/angle of shot
2. HEAT's round takes into account the angle of penetration to determine the real thickness
3. AP (if I know what T/D is I could put in an educated guess) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Also, I misquoted the source on the manganese shortage that caused steel brittleness in late war German tank <img src="redface.gif" border="0">

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: lnp4668 ]</p>

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:04 pm

Casper,

This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes.

Tommy

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:28 pm

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper,

This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes.

Tommy

I am playing a email game with my friend, if u need the savegame, i could email u my password and the savegame itself.

I was staying behind that stupid hill because of my friend panther and his artillery. I got so frustrated as he is in the open and I used my artillery (rockets) on it and finally I got so frustrated, I charged out for a fight.

Just say it and I will email u the game <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:33 pm

Originally posted by lnp4668:

[snip]

Now what the heck that means, don't ask me <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> However this is my guess.
1. HE's explosive power is compare directly to the armor thickness, disregard the slope/angle of shot
2. HEAT's round takes into account the angle of penetration to determine the real thickness
3. AP (if I know what T/D is I could put in an educated guess) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Also, I misquoted the source on the manganese shortage that caused steel brittleness in late war German tank <img src="redface.gif" border="0">

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: lnp4668 ]

Very good. T/D is the ratio of armor thickness to the diameter of the AP round.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:38 pm

You are correct.

HE goes against the base thickness of the armor, slope is not a factor.

HEAT uses the geometric thickness of the armor (no T/D slope effect

AP and APCR use a T/D corrected slope correction (low T/D means the slope has less effect and ricochets are less common, high T/D means the slope has a great effect and ricochets will be more frequent).

IF you shoot on the move with most SOviet equipment you are wastig ammo - shoot first, then move.

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]</p>

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:15 pm

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper,

This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes.

Tommy

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes the bug. Usually the Russians are the bug, It's good to hear that it is possible.
<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 5:45 pm

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper,

This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes.

Tommy

Tommy,

I have just obtained the copy of OOB 7.05B. I think you would like it. The accuracy has imporved. Now you get about 10 to 11 %.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

A....forgot to mention, so does the enemy so...back to square one...they can hit you better now. I plaed a tiger on the hill top and didnt move it at all and the accuracy is much better. Maybe the Beta has clear off that part of the bug. I trial this with the computer.

I have not tried email game yet but I managed to convinced my friend to switch to the beta version and try afew games with it. Though I must admit defeat to all games I am having with him presently(6 games)
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Do you like a copy? We can a game or two to further our discuss? I am open to any game, just mail a game to me and we will try. Which side u prefer German or Russian.

<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 5:52 pm

IF you think the default hitting chances are too skewed, you can raise teh Russian hitting chances in the preferences screen. I believe them to be pretty accurate in ver 7

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:55 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
IF you think the default hitting chances are too skewed, you can raise teh Russian hitting chances in the preferences screen. I believe them to be pretty accurate in ver 7

Paul,

In the version 6, using email gmae, it is not only the Russian are getting lousy hitting % but the German too. I have just asked my friend about it. He said that he placed a Tiger on top of a hill for two turn without moving, when he spotted my unit, his hit percent is as bad between 15 to 20 hexes away. His hitting percentage was also 2 to 4 %. For me is about 2% for initial shot. However, the ver 7b5 was better now, I have an initial of 10 to 14 % after moving to fire position but....now he has about 24 to 30 %.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 10:24 pm

Make sure you delete teh steel.prf file whenever you add a new mech.exe or the prefs can get weirded up...its in the SAVE folder.

Check the suppresssion of the firing unit - you want 0 suppression to have teh best shooting chances. the first 1 point of suppression (ie knowing that someone is shooting back) is a big penalty to hitting. Also ensure you are "in cover" that adds to your coolness under fire. Suppression above 1 reduces hit % by 50% of the suppression (so 30 suppression reduces hit chance form 60 to 45 - 15 % points)

Firing at a fast moving target can also make it tough, but good fire control counters that. Firing after movement is a big no-no unless you have a targeting stat of 3 or 4.

If there is a Tiger on a hill shooting at you, fire everything including the kitchen sink at it and it will button (reducing its spotting chances and your odds of evading)

FOr keeping high hit chances, stay back aways, a Tiger or Panther can get 30 or 40 % hit chances at 30 hexes if suppression is zero and in cover. Getting close can actually HURT by exposing you to more fire and suppression penalties than you gain for closing the range.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 11:24 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
IF you think the default hitting chances are too skewed, you can raise teh Russian hitting chances in the preferences screen. I believe them to be pretty accurate in ver 7

Paul,

I missed something here. How do I read my current OOB version and where can I get ver 7?

Thanks

Tommy

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 11:27 pm

Casper

Thanks for the offer of a game, but I just don't have enough time. You'd die of old age by turn 2!

BTW, where did you get version 7 of the OOB?

Tommy

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 12:02 am

Originally posted by Tommy:

Paul,

I missed something here. How do I read my current OOB version and where can I get ver 7?
Thanks
Tommy

If you have to ask, you don't have ver 7. Its in testing. You might ask Matrix to be a tester but time is real tight for this and I don't know if they have time to add more testers. Then again thy might.

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:35 pm

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper

Thanks for the offer of a game, but I just don't have enough time. You'd die of old age by turn 2!

BTW, where did you get version 7 of the OOB?

Tommy

support Matrix buy the new mega campaign, it comes with it.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:59 pm

Originally posted by Casper:

support Matrix buy the new mega campaign, it comes with it.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Larry & Casper,

This is getting confusing. I have the MCNA, but I read on this forum that it is ver 5 on the OOB.

Does anyone know how to read my current OOB version? I think we'll all want to know this from now on as OOB's get out of synch with the mech.exe revision numbers.

Tommy

john g · Post by **john g** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 4:18 pm

Originally posted by Tommy:

Does anyone know how to read my current OOB version? I think we'll all want to know this from now on as OOB's get out of synch with the mech.exe revision numbers.

Tommy

Use the spwaweditor and look at any nationality, change to formations, the first formation, which is your A0 unit, will list the oob version.
thanks, John.