Coastal shipping

[bstarr]

I recently recieved my grandfather's merchant marine record from the Coast Guard. I noticed that almost half of his time at sea was spent on coastal runs. Although, this has more to do with the Atlantic than the PAcific (he shipped out of Baltimore for most of the war), it did make me wonder if there was anything that could be done to simulate (even abstractly) the lesser important routes of the war. I still believe that Don's merchant additions are absolutely outstanding and, aside from Andy's Map, the biggest bonus to any mod as yet. However, I imagine that some of these ships we are using to transport Marines to the South Pacific were probably used more along the lines of transporting bananas from South America. If there was only something else for them to do . . . I dunno, maybe some sort of add along the lines Aden; the Aden base certainly helped make India interesting for the first time.

I know, I know, I hate it when someone yelps out that they want some minor fix that doesn't amount to a hill of beans then they don't even offer the slightest hint of a solution. I just thought I'd toss it out there and see if anyone has any ideas. Even silly, hairbrained ones. Hell, I may try it on my own.
bs


ps. side note - I found out Papa was suspended without pay for 4 months due to "drunk and disorderly conduct while on watch". I guess it's an inherited trait.

[eMonticello]

Roughly 10% of the total measured-ton of shipping was used for civilian goods during the war (Atlantic and Pacific combined). You are correct in that most coastal traffic was in the East Coast, although some traffic did move between the West Coast and Alaska.

If you want a rough estimate of the ships that should be "taken off-line" due to coastal shipping, calculate the total capacity of all ships that are available at the beginning of a quarter and select the ships that cumulatively meet or exceed 10% of that capacity. This would only be necessary for AKs since California supplied all the oil that the Pacific Theaters needed (all the tankers should be available unless you want to simulate the high demand for shipping prior to Torch and Overlord).

[bstarr]

Coastal shipping would include TKs as well, at least in the East Coast. All the ships my grandfather served on were tankers. However, when I really back up and think about it, Western Coast Shipping is already represented by the ships moving back and forth to Alaska. The rest of the shipping along the coast was probably handled by barges. My tongue-in-cheek example of bananas coming from South America may have some real validity, but, then again, I'll bet there are some South American registered vessels aren't included in the game.

This little mind-fart did give me one possible idea. I wonder how much supply a useless device, like CHMs "Fortification" and Pry's "Infrastructure" would eat up. By adding several such devices (probably called "Civilians") to heavily populated areas like Hawaii and Alaska they would increase the supply demand, causing the player to worry about shipping "civilian goods."

I may try this as an experiment! Anyone have any ideas which areas would need the most civilian goods? I would think that Australia, West Coast, and maybe India would be selfsustaining but heavily populated islands would need supplies from outside.
bs

[Buck Beach]

Talk about coincidence, I just picked up the game again ( I purchased it the first week it was available) after laying off for what seems eons awaiting several of the mods and official fixes to get to a point to start playing again. I started Pry's mod with Andrew Brown's map and I am on my first turn Allied set up. After spending a couple of hours with the AKs (not really knowing what I am doing as far as organization) I started thinking about this very subject. Do the supply ships also represent the ships used to transport goods for civilian purposes? I am going to rationalize that the new reduced Allied supply and ship capacity in the various mods are an offset for this issue. I have no basis for this but in my simple minded way it works for me.

Side note, I would prefer to use the CHS and the Brown Special map but I am an AI player. I like several things about each mod including the new Nik new mod.

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

This little mind-fart did give me one possible idea. I wonder how much supply a useless device, like CHMs "Fortification" and Pry's "Infrastructure" would eat up. By adding several such devices (probably called "Civilians") to heavily populated areas like Hawaii and Alaska they would increase the supply demand, causing the player to worry about shipping "civilian goods."

I may try this as an experiment! Anyone have any ideas which areas would need the most civilian goods? I would think that Australia, West Coast, and maybe India would be selfsustaining but heavily populated islands would need supplies from outside.
bs

The area's that need it most would not require shipping. Sure, Hawaii and Alaska have some civilian needs, but coastal shipping is used in heavily populated areas with islands and inlets. That's mostly Japan. The US west coast doesn't need shipping to move supplies from Seattle to LA. Japan also does not need shipping to move supplies (the rule about bases one hex apart having supplies and stuff move without shipping).

So, you can add civilians to west coast cities, but you'd get the same effect from just reducing the daily supply at the US base.

without house rules, I don't see how you can implement civilian shipping needs. You can remove some ships from the OOB, to represent that they are used by civilians, but that removes targets from the map. In my games, a lot of ships just sit in port because I have more than I need. Again, that removes targets from the map (at least targets in the open ocean). You can put LCU's in areas that have "civilians" that need supply, but you won't need ships to move the supply around (US west coast and Japan all have auto supply movement rules).

The one fix that has helped is adding Aden in the indian ocean. That does tie up some more shipping in that theatre. But, I don't see how you can implement the same thing in the US west coast or Japan and maintain some sort of historic accuracy.

I wish I could have added some productive thoughts here. I do agree with your theory. But the game has rules that pretty much eliminate the need for civilian shipping in the important areas.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Side note, I would prefer to use the CHS and the Brown Special map but I am an AI player.

Hey give it a try. We are seeing some very good games against the AI and some where the AI goes to sleep. Perhaps there is some random factor during scenario load that drives when the AI decides to "go defensive".

[eMonticello]

The area's that need it most would not require shipping. Sure, Hawaii and Alaska have some civilian needs, but coastal shipping is used in heavily populated areas with islands and inlets.

The military supplied the civilians in Hawaii until late in the war. It might make sense to create civilian Land Units that consume lots of supplies Also, the West Coast began supplying the Panama Canal beginning March 1942.

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

The area's that need it most would not require shipping. Sure, Hawaii and Alaska have some civilian needs, but coastal shipping is used in heavily populated areas with islands and inlets.

The military supplied the civilians in Hawaii until late in the war. It might make sense to create civilian Land Units that consume lots of supplies Also, the West Coast began supplying the Panama Canal beginning March 1942.

Exactly!

(by the way, I hijacked my own thread. It started out about "Coastal Shipping" now it's more like "Feed the Islanders")

Most bases fall too soon to need any civilian adjustment, and the japs didn't really worry about civilian population (hell, they hardly fed their troops). Also, many larger areas would be selfsustaining. I think Hawaii, certain islands in South Pacific, Panama, and maybe bases in Alaska would be the possible "civilian" areas. Any other areas pop to mind?

Any opinions on which bases should be included? And any suggestions on how much supply to the bases (as in "A lot", "some", "a little", "a buttload", etc. Not exact tonnage. we can try to figure out the tonnage by trial and error)
bs

[eMonticello]

The Army Green Books will probably have the answer as to the number of tons was used to supply civilians. That's where I picked up the 10% figure.

[CobraAus]

I have bee thinking along the same line for some time but have not checked out the mechamics of because of ship design work (now finished) so hade a quick look at this to day

start with question if you look at ground units the have a start supply of xxx supply
and a required supply of xxx supplies - is this requiement on a daily/week/month time scale
[&:][&:][&:]

(A)ok after looking at various ground unit supply requirements and how many troops were in the unit a rough (at this stage) average per individual of 0.05 supply was required
(time scale see above question) will come back to above statment in a minute

create a civilian unit to use in locations (all they do is eat at this stage) - 4 classes
1 islanders say a population 0-200 per island location/base
2 villages 100-500 per location/bases (India-China-Russia)
3 rural 100-100000 per location/base
4 city 1000-1000000+ per location/base (major city locations)
A thought, a large Rural Population Center could possible produce something (need to look at)
using the above a village of 500 would require 25 supply on top of any military supply
at that site
an island base with 200 pop requires 10 supply
a large rural base/town 10000 pop requires 500 supply
a city say Melb 250000 pop requires 12500 supply
a city San Fran 1000000 pop requires 50000 supply
In areas of supply production say again San Fran take away 50000 as civ overhead and whats left for Mil ???
these are rough samples with some net seaching acurate pop 1941-46 fiqs should be found

also as a lot of these locations are inland the supply points for them via rail/road would have to bear the overhead
where are all those slack transports when I need them ??
if this type of network was created over supplied areas such as west coast would soon feel the pinch for miltary supply

A lot of fine tuning and testing would have to be looked at but at this stage cant see why cant be done across the board

more thinking time needed and more heads to look at this, back to you Bstarr

Cobra Aus

[bstarr]

The limits on number of LCUs will be a problem. Each location needing civilian supply will probably need an immobile LCU. Example - a "Honolulu" LCU at the Pearl Harbor base.

As I mentioned above, the only places I can see really needing this kind of attention would be Hawaii, certain islands in the South Pacific, Panama, and maybe some bases in Alaska. Other bases either fall too soon or would be considered selfsustaining.

Anyone know what the computer uses to determine how much supply a device uses? Load Cost, maybe?

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

The Army Green Books will probably have the answer as to the number of tons was used to supply civilians. That's where I picked up the 10% figure.

eMonticello,
Please tell me the Army Green Books are online. If make another major book purchace this month my wife will kill me.
bs

[CobraAus]

Each location needing civilian supply will probably need an immobile LCU.

If you make the LCU's immobile you would take away an aspect you most likly havent thought of
historic if a city came under attack there was a mad scramble to evacuate civilians if the LCU is movable it creates a openning to rescue civs from bases such as Hong Kong and Singapor
as example putting more pressure on AP's And Ak's, think about it
evacuated civs arriving in another city puts more pressure on supply in historic terms
would create an completly new area to have to control in game

Cobra Aus

[eMonticello]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

The Army Green Books will probably have the answer as to the number of tons was used to supply civilians. That's where I picked up the 10% figure.

eMonticello,
Please tell me the Army Green Books are online. If make another major book purchace this month my wife will kill me.
bs

A few of the books have been transcribed here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/index.html#usn

Your best bet is to borrow the books through Interlibrary Loan. If you decide to purchase them, you can demonstrate that, although the books are packed with useless information, they do make great paperweights.

Full Priced CD and Books are here: http://bookstore.gpo.gov/sb/sb-070.html

Search for "United States Army and World War II" and you'll find the CDs and books. The most useful are in the Technical Services ... Transportation Corps, Operations Overseas, Transportation Corps, Responsibilities, Organization, and Operations, and Global Logistics and Strategy, 1940-1943.

You may also be able to purchase used books through abebook, amazon, or a used bookstore. If you do decide to buy, I'd suggest this route first, since you'll more than likely get a used library copy that only a grognard would borrow

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

Each location needing civilian supply will probably need an immobile LCU.

If you make the LCU's immobile you would take away an aspect you most likly havent thought of
historic if a city came under attack there was a mad scramble to evacuate civilians if the LCU is movable it creates a openning to rescue civs from bases such as Hong Kong and Singapor
as example putting more pressure on AP's And Ak's, think about it
evacuated civs arriving in another city puts more pressure on supply in historic terms
would create an completly new area to have to control in game

Cobra Aus

Uh, no; bad idea. There were no massive evacs in the Pacific. All this would cause would be the unhistoric evacuation of the Hawaiians & islanders to the West Coast to make them easier to feed.

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

The Army Green Books will probably have the answer as to the number of tons was used to supply civilians. That's where I picked up the 10% figure.

eMonticello,
Please tell me the Army Green Books are online. If make another major book purchace this month my wife will kill me.
bs

A few of the books have been transcribed here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/index.html#usn

You're best bet is to borrow the books through Interlibrary Loan. If you decide to purchase them, you can demonstrate that, although the books are packed with useless information, they do make great paperweights.

Full Priced CD and Books are here: http://bookstore.gpo.gov/sb/sb-070.html

Search for "United States Army and World War II" and you'll find the CDs and books. The most useful are in the Technical Services ... Transportation Corps, Operations Overseas, Transportation Corps, Responsibilities, Organization, and Operations, and Global Logistics and Strategy, 1940-1943.

You may also be able to purchase used books through abebook, amazon, or a used bookstore. If you do decide to buy, I'd suggest this route first, since you'll more than likely get a used library copy that only a grognard would borrow

Thanks for the info. You may have saved my marriage. [;)]