Subs everywhere!

[Crimguy]

Started Scen 15 a couple of days ago. Using 1.6. Noticed that HI is swarming with subs - about 4-5 per hex around Oahu in each direction.

Was there an AI change that caused this? I don't remember it from my 1.4 games.

Not a big worry, though. They seem to be foolishly sticking around and getting mauled by the two ASW TF's I set up.

[Nikademus]

Scn 15 has always started off with a massive concentration of Iboats bunched around the H. Islands.

[Terminus]

I think Crimguy was more alluding to the fact that they stay there; in my long-running game against the Japanese AI, I also had a field day against the I-boats around Hawaii for the first week or so. Then they slinked away to go be obnoxious along the eastern coast of Australia. Now there aren't a lot of them left.[:)]

[Nikademus]

interesting. In all my AI games, the AI moves then away. lol....it seems even the AI isn't that crazy (bunching so many subs so close to Pearl)

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Started Scen 15 a couple of days ago. Using 1.6. Noticed that HI is swarming with subs - about 4-5 per hex around Oahu in each direction.

Was there an AI change that caused this? I don't remember it from my 1.4 games.

Not a big worry, though. They seem to be foolishly sticking around and getting mauled by the two ASW TF's I set up.

i think what he's noticing is how the air search picks up enemy subs a lot easier now...so you see a lot more...

[Crimguy]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
i think what he's noticing is how the air search picks up enemy subs a lot easier now...so you see a lot more...

I think that must be it.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
i think what he's noticing is how the air search picks up enemy subs a lot easier now...so you see a lot more...

I think that must be it.

Yup with 1.5 enhanced by 1.6 we now have the WWII equivalent of the S3A aboard our carriers ( and our land bases !!! ) ... though they hit more like our P3s !!!

Subs are back to being targets ... with aircraft mission profile

Altitude = 1000 feet
Range = Normal for the aircraft in question
Mission = Naval Search ( NOT ASW !!! )
Naval Search Percentage = 100

You will clobber subs ...

medium bombers and dive bombers seem to be the most effective !?

[509th Bob]

I suggest some historical reading might be illuminating here. The IJN attack options for PH were, originally, All SUB attack, and then later a SUB/Air attack. The IJN (like the USN) was a battleship-admiral fleet, and they weren't too sure that the Air-alone attack would work. That is why the midget subs were sunk at PH before the attack - a sop to the battleship crowd. The idea was that, when the Air attack "didn't" work, the USN would come swarming out and be picked off by the subs.

As for numerous ASW kills in the immediate aftermath of Dec. 7th, I too got more than my fair share (more than historical balance). I do not think that the USN was running aggressive ASW immediately after 12/7/41 around PH. So it's one of those historical possibilities that only appears in a game like this. Which is why we play the game, right?

[AFIntel]

I believe (I may be off by a few) about 25 IJN submarines (excluding the minisubs) partook in the attack (i.e. were within a few hundred miles of the Hawaiian Islands). Some of my research indicates that many of those subs continued ops in the vicinity of the Islands for a few weeks afterward (sinking something along the lines of half a dozen merchantmen). Many others continued on to the West Coast of the US, hassling with merchant vessels along the California coast.

Japanese subs hanging around the Islands after the attack? Historical. Being detected at abnormal rates? Ahistorical based on how many ASW patrols you task. Keep in mind, however, that the PH attack did a number on the USN PBY fleet. In addition, the USN's first priority was preparing for a possible invasion of the islands, not hunting submarines. They apparently didn't know about the vast number of subs in the Islands area for the first few days/weeks.

[moses]

I always thought, based on what I've read, that aircraft were the greater threat to subs especially in the open sea. The game was prior to 1.5 just the opposite. We had overly powerful surface ASW and underpowered air ASW. I was willing to be happy with this as I figured the effects balanced each other out.

In my view air is now about right historically. (OK maybe a tiny bit overpowered but not much) The problem is surface ASW is still the same and is now not counter-balanced by weak air ASW.

So maybe it is time to look at toning down surface ASW.

[Nikademus]

They were, because aircraft can spot a sub and force it to dive impairing it's effectiveness unless it happens to be sitting along a known route and is expecting company in which case it can stay submerged (examples would be Ultra led intercept attempts against warships who's schedule became known)

Later in the war aircraft became deadlier because they started arriving armed with goodies. If they took the sub by suprise it could be a sitting duck. I just lost an Iboat that surcombed to damage that way...hit by a B-25 after skulking about near Brisbane.

The only sub loss for me for the month of April ironically.