Game anyone?

[Agent Smith]

Is anyone up for a game? I can play either side. E-mail me at: matt2sign@mail.ru

[itsjustme]

I'll play.

It was suggested to me that I give the following scenario a try.

Load the possum scenario. Neither side can make an offensive move until the first week of June '42. You can reorganize forces, train, etc. After that, its a free for all.

Let me know if you'd be interested. If not, we can play a regular '41 campaign. I prefer the Germans.

[itsjustme]

ah, one other thing. The soviet player must remove all entrenchment the last week in May.

[whollaborg]

Agent Smith kindly agreed to try a fight with me.

Settings:
Me - Axis,
Agent - U.S.S.R.
1941 ver 1.3

House Rules:
1. A corps can only change HQ before it has been special supplied (Bug #1- special supply is limited by Operational Points in a single HQ and Issue #1).
2. Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Corps/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Corps/HQ may be air attacked (interdict or bomb AF) more than 3 times per turn. Any airgroup can fly only one airmission per turn (Bug #6, Issue #4).
3. A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it (Issue #5, Issue #6).
4. Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn. Destination hex must be a port (Issue #8).
5. Players cannot change a structure of command and Hitler\Stalin leadership (Bug #2, Bug #3).
6. Players can change a production of no more than one tank and one airplane factory per turn. Players cannot change a production of factory with delay.(Bug #5).
7. Usage of bugs #8, #9, #10, #11 (players has to set “human production upgrade control”), #12, #13 (65000 railroad points) is cheating.
8. (Issue B) Finnish forces cannot attack but can bombard Northern
Leningrad (40/6). The Soviets are required to garrison North-Leningrad
with minimum 3 division sized corps. If this corps is withdrawn (only
in full size) Finns are allowed to attack Leningrad City with all
means in range of other House rules.
-Any airgroups operating from Finnish soil can comission all the same
attacks that airgroups in normal Axis HQ's are allowed. Finnish and
other axis airgoups can be mixed in any HQ.
-If Axis capture and hold 44/6 untill next Axis turn the Finns are
allowed to attack with all means in range of other House rules.
-Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in
combat IF Leningrad (40/7) is captured, Finnish forces are allowed to
enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or
above the 15th parallel. Exept 5 full divisions which can be deployed
under other Axis HQ's/Corps. IF Moscow is captured all finnish
restrictions are removed.
-IF Soviets re-capture and hold for an axis turn one of the cities of
Pskov, Minsk or Odessa with an army or corps (not partisan) all the
Finnish forces in "south" must be withdrawn to 5th or above parallel
in two axis turns.
9. Training bomber fleets with air transporting missions in the
back-lines is probhited.


Unruled Bugs and issues:
B#4: It is generally bad to have a HQ with zero Oprerational Points. So I think this bug cannot be abused.
B#7: This bug is out of human control.
I#3: See I#11.
I#7: I see no problem here.
I#9: I see no problem here.
I#10: I have never expirience this problem.
I#11: (and I#3) Mono type production is not very historical, but the reasons for multi-type producing were: 1) Nobody knew the real “stats” of new equipment. 2) Lobbies of various groups existed in both countries. 3) Concept of main battle tank was not introduced.
As we are beyond these restrictions...
I#13: Just play around it.
I#14: Yes, tanks and mechanised divisions can move through mountains and swamp without losing speed. Terrain is not a barrier for troops, only enemy resistance is (as some famous soviet generak said).
I#15: You have to spend a lot of Operational points for such march.


List of bugs and issues:

BUGS

B1: Special supply through renaming
A corps can be special supplied repeatedly if it is renamed.
B2: High command leader change
Stavka and OKH can be removed and placed again; this changes their leaders. However, if a player does this he will no longer receive new formations.
B3: High command circumventing
A circular order of command can be established among HQs with the Alt-H command, thus circumventing higher command completely.
B4: Free transfer
All units assigned to HQs with zero OPs can be transferred out at no cost.
B5 Factory delay reduction
A factory with a delay level over 4 can be converted, reducing the delay to 4.
B6 Fighter bomber repeated interdiction
If an interdiction mission is conducted, all fighter-bomber groups have their "u" marker removed and can be used again to interdict.
B7 Repeated attacks stop
A player can have overwhelming odds against a repeated attacks hex but these will stop if other combat takes place elsewhere.
B8 Half-way saving
If a player saves during the turn and restores the game, he will get extra reinforcements, entrenchment, readiness etc.
B9 Restarting the turn
A player (especially Soviet) can restart their turn to influence the following: leader resignation; unsuccessful USAAF missions; weather
B10 Editors
The save files are weakly encrypted, making it possible for players to use editors to affect the game stats directly.
B11 Fast production change
Under computer control, a factory will upgrade its production with only a delay of 1, even if it has just been changed to the previous item. This makes it possible to change production in just 2 turns instead of 4 for items that can be upgraded to.
B12 Assigning enemy units
Players are able to change the HQ assignment of enemy units.
B13 Fantastic railroad
Players can gain 6500 railroadpoints

ISSUES
I1: Mules
A corps can fight under the command of a different HQ than the one that gave it special supply.
I2: Fighting HQs
HQs can be stuffed up with units and placed on the front line for overstrength defense.
I3: Excessive production of heavy tanks
A player can produce unhistorically high numbers of heavy tanks and use them to great effect.
I4: Repeated interdiction
It's possible to bomb a single hex with single groups of bombers, to great effect, especially if combined with B6 above.
I5: Isolation at low cost
Small formations can be placed in mobile corps sent to cut the enemy's lines of supply.
I6: Fast infantry
Mobile corps with few mobile divisions and a lot of infantry can plot 5 and will restore their readiness quickly, especially during German blitz supply
I7: Minor allies in the west
The German player can send minor allied formations to fronts they could never have fought on.
I8: Naval transport
Units can be sent or retrieved from a city in naval supply using rail transfer.
I9: Exclusive air supply
An isolated corps can still advance and attack if it is well supplied from the air.
I10: Airfield vulnerability
With only two exceptions, airfields can be hit anywhere on the map, even at great distances.
I11: Overproduction of a single type
Some items are very powerful in the game and players will produce many more of them than was historically the case. Some of the problems of these items are not reflected in the game though (e.g. the He177 had very unreliable engines).
I12: Finnish politics
Finland's war aims were limited and their troops wouldn't have attacked Leningrad or advanced very far within the USSR.
I13: High readiness shattering
The Soviets in the summer of '41 and the Germans during the blizzard of the same year shatter easily at high readiness levels. The problem is supposed to be fixed for the Germans with v3.3
I14: Tanks in hard terrain
Units can move through mountains and unfrozen swamps without losing speed.
I15: Extremely long marches
Divisions can be moved from one end of the map to the other without using rail points if all the corps they pass through are special supplied.


B) Political restrictions are real and good to use - but "what would
have happened if" scenarios are always arguable. I tend to see Finnish
gov. quite agressive at the begining of the war and agreeing with most
of the goals of Hitler and there is even documents that show how
Finnish and Natzi officials agreed on horrible goal of destroying
totally the city of Leningrad as a "permanent and ancient threath to
Finland". Finnish politics definately changed more defensive when the
war started to seem lost (quite early actually).
So if you read mine proposal of Finnish restrictions you might find
those quite a good compromise still. Even added a clause for the
Soviets counterattack.

[whollaborg]

2. Axis turn ended in massive onslaught that gained momentum as expected.

Soviet Union has it's gate cleaved down by massive encirclements in Ukraina. Only few divisions of frontline Mechanised and Tank korpus could retreat. Odessa was taken by fast and deadly hit from hastily formed panzercorps! No ammo or food in forces around Moldova

6500 Soviet planes were destroyed on initial assault. Altough Soviets retreated all their planes in the Moscow area the second axis turn took another 1000 planes. Longrange bombers came by night and left those emergency airfield shattered.
Massive damage inflicted on soviet airforces!


Report of Sov casulties for the first 2. axis turns
14 429 Squads of Soviets killed or surrendered
4 803 Tanks destroyed
5 090 Guns destroyed
7 538 Planes destroyed [:-]


Berlin waits the claybear to fall down in few weeks!

[DavidFaust]

I like your rules...

[whollaborg]

Rules are mainly from Agent Smith. Only rules 8 and 9 come from me, all the other credit goes to Agent.
But thanks kingtiger! [:)]

[whollaborg]

6th turn ended with Axis triumph in Kiov. Brave defenders were shattered by massive strike of 4 corps of which two were elite panzer corps. 3500 strong axis aircraft formations pounded the City's defensive perimeter in south and the defenders that linked the city to Moscow. Panzerkorps crossed Dnjepr with minimal losses in two places. Bobraisk liberated in the central area as well and Pskov in North.

Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia already liberated!
August can come and bring Axis to Russia.

Axis losses so far:
Squads 1 535
Afs 561
Guns 95
Aircraft 415

For soviets it looks terrible:
Squads 27 574
Afs 8 439
Guns 10 460
Aircraft 7 538

[whollaborg]

August 17th 1941,

German Forces advance in the Middle. 2nd and 3rd Panzercorps surround city or two every week and the infanry mops the defenders up so the rail lines can be built on with steady phase. Kharkov falls in few weeks as its in danger to be cut from the supply system of Soviet Union. 4th panzerkorps races east from Leningrad which thus surrounded have no chance at all.
200 Migs tried to relief Leningrad from relentles bombing campaign conducted by Luftwaffe. Brave pilots failed and fell from the sky as did their comrades desperately trying to defend first two defensive perimeters of Moskova which are to be breached soon.

Losses for the axis are:
2 624 Squads
858 Panzers
487 Guns
843 Aircraft

In the end of the 9th axis turn the situation is dire for STAVKA [:@]
38 504 Squads
10 302 Tanks
14 062 Guns
8 329 Aircraft

[whollaborg]

End of August and blitzkrieg supply,

German turn 11. ended with Collapse of the Northern Fronts of Soviet Union.

Leningrad was surrounded two weeks ago and hit badly in 27th August. Devastating attack of two infantry corps designed for taking the city with help of one heavy panzercorps from the east - and - the City fell! Defending shock army did not have chance and was captured by this brave attack.
Two Soviet Frontal headquarters were destroyed by roaming panzers far east from Leningrad and one shock army was cut out of the supply. That army was guarding the last supply line to fallen City of Leningrad.
Finns are now free to join the blitz!

Armeegruppe Mitte reached the outskirts of Moskov and the city can be seen from the highest tops of hills 2nd and 3rd panzer Armies are securing behind of three cracked and surrounded Soviet Shock armies which were formed too hastily.
Fight for the Moskow has begun!
Attack came from surprising direction of Southwest and thus bypassed soviet defensive lines to west from the City. Those defenders are now hurrying back to the capital and racing against german 2nd and 3rd panzer Armies which are followed by massive infantry columns from direction of Bryansk.

In South Kharkov was cut from the supply as the german railroads are closing in.

Berlin celebrates victory in the East as it has been announced! [&o]

Axis casulties:
3 258 Squads
1 121 Panzers
517 Guns
1 143 Aircraft

Soviet casulties:
48 249 Squads
11 910 Tanks
17 101 Guns
10 086 Aircraft

[whollaborg]

Thank you Agent Smith!

It was a good game and you were very polite person. Thank you!

Game ended before turn 14 as Soviet Highcommand surrendered without reservations to Axis troops which made to suburbs of Moskow and were soon to surround the City.

Massive damage done to single Shock troops around the country had hit the SU groundforces down, it's airforce was in shatters enven thou it tried to make brave last stand in the skies above Moskow. More that 13 000 planes were shot to pieces in three months of war.


---


Few notes made,

As SU the foremost importance at the begining of two first turns is
to flee and use all the means necessary to save most of those
divisions that get run by otherwice

Raillines are the key,

If trying to stop the Axis for a short time, even for a turn to deny
the building rail lines is to form solid and even a double line with
5-10 armies which have time to get some entrenchement. Those all
should have 5 full inf divisions and most of them good tank divisions
as well. They can fight only about one or two turns and when the risk
of encirclement becomes nearer, all the armies must be withdrawn
atleast 5 hexes and its best to withdraw best of the divisions to
fullfill the almost empty corps behind which have been given time to
dig in. Those places must be chosen at the begining of the war.
One division armies can be sacrificed of those formations in hope to
cut the build axis railline. I use one div is max for those purposes.

I saw you tried to do proper defence in Kiov and it nearly managed to
stall me. If it had a bit more time to dig in it might have done nasty
things to me (like encirkling and even destroying one of the panzer
corpses or so).
I usually try to stall Axis in the small town just before Kiev a bit
to give those armies (formed on the first turn) time to entrench.

Same goes for defence in Pskov, there's good place to try to make
stand with about 50 divisions which will eventually fall back with
valuable combat experience. Lonely Shock armies in key places are easy
to encircle and completely evaporate if the attacker knows where to
expect those and not run panzers blindly to those cities or
riverbanks.

Soviet airforces,

All remainging planes from the initial blitz attack must be withdrawn
as far as possible. For training as you did. Pehaps the long range
Henkels surprised you a bit though.

It is possible to use those Soviet bombers for short time in the
defence of Moskow, Leningrad and even Kiev, when the panzers might
outrun their fightercover (10 hexes from respective HQ's) but when
unsure withdraw it all. I have managed to pound blitizing panzers
quite effectively some times. But its too rare really to make effect
in first summer.
You used your fighters in formations of 200 which was a good thing.
They were a bit too close to my 90% of fighters i used near Moskow.
And the might have lacked that critical 10 points in experience as
well. The time battle of Moskow started was too early for Soviet
airforces. They really cant be brought in seriously before the mud or
even winter.

It was a good game and i managed to learn from it, thank you Agent!

Yours,
Savanniperkele [;)]