8.4 is Great-Do You Agree?

[KG Erwin]

Michael, your improvements to SPWaW have really transformed the game experience, and to you, I can only thank you for coming back and reworking the code. It is a hit, and all of us owe you a sincere thanks. I am having a helluva great time.

What you did, whether intentional or not, made my experiences in Pacific battles much more intense--the MGs are more effective, and the snipers are now more deadly--I don't think you did this intentionally, but the battle results now reflect this [&o]

[Warrior]

v8.4 RULES! [&o]

[robot]

I am sorry guys but I dont see why all the enthusism comes from. I do not see that much difference from 8.4 and all the rest of them. I dont see where my mg are any better or worse then any of the other patches. I still dont see all this big difference in how the ai fights or buys. He still overloads with one kind or the other of units. Since I patched with 8.4 I have fought 3 battles against the poles. In two of them he overloaded with 100mm and 50mm mortars and no tanks to speak of. Now in this one he has an over abundance of 100mm and uhlan troopers and very few tanks. My machine guns still take out from 3 to 7 men at 50 yards and maybe 1 or 2 at say 400 yards. Had a 7.62 dp take out one of my meduim tanks by the russians at over 800 yards so where is any change.

The AI is still as dumb in the way he buys and the way he advances. Either tanks all out in front or no tanks with his infantry. And always concentrates his strength in the middle or to the north flank. This is only my opinion and the way i see it. Hell maybe im dumb for fightin all the different battles with all the powers and trying to have the long campaign be a chronology of the war. A sort of day by day month by month sort of long campaign at least for me.

I have started my long campaign over at least a dozen times now. Either because it was recommended when new patches where added or because my comp gave up the ghost. The latest date in the war I have gotten too with all the powers and in all the theaters of war was early 1943. This has now turned into a life work for me. So far since my comp decided to screw up and the latest patch I am now in 10/39 with the germans and japan. My first battle as the Russians starts in 12/39 then I will move on to 1940 when the Brits will come in. Then 1941 late when the US Army enters in Africa. Then hopefully 1942 late with the US Marines and British in the Pacific and Asia. Have forgotten when it is the Japs also come into the Pacific.

I am fighting as the Germans both East and West fronts battles. This is two different campaigns along with Japan already in east Asia. Takes a lot of time and dedication to stick with SPWAW thru all this and still have fun playing it. I have never really bitched about the way it plays or nit pick because of the way one thing or another works. I have just enjoyed playing all these years no matter what.

I am extremely thankful for the way all the people have tried to make it better over the years. And the improvements are tremendous and have kept me thrilled and delighted each and every time. For the years of enjoyment and all the years to come I thank you. Please dont make me start over again I dont believe I have the years left to start over any more times.

[Alby]

The patch actually had nothing to do with what the AI initially purchases..
this is done in the oob editor.
I have changed some of the AI picks in my mods, nothing drastic, but....
and unfortunately, fixing a few bugs will not make the AI smarter, it is what it is....
To me the MGs sure seem more deadly witht the first burst they fire.

here is what the patch adjusted as far as campaigns...

4) Rewrote the code that chooses if the player mission is advance or assault in the long WWII Campaign and campaigns created using the Campaign Generator. Decreased the likelihood of Allied armies in the early war and Axis powers in the late war.
5) Changed the way reinforcement points are generated in the long WWII Campaign. Instead of having a maximum of 1/15th the value of the players force, the value is now 1/10th of the enemy force. The reasoning here is that reinforcements are more needed when the player is outnumbered, such as in a defend mission, than when he has the dominate force, such as in an advance mission.
6) In 1944 of the long WWII campaign, the computer opponent will receive more troops, if the human is playing Axis and fewer, if he is playing Allied. This effect becomes greater in 1945.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Just downloaded (paid for it) a number of Glenn Miller songs.

Glenn Miller RULES! ...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: Warrior

v8.4 RULES! [&o]

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

Just downloaded (paid for it) a number of Glenn Miller songs.

Glenn Miller RULES! ...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: Warrior

v8.4 RULES! [&o]

STYX RULES....[:D]

[VikingNo2]

It's too early to tell but the sheer joy of seeing a T-34 loading with 10 men hanging on for dear life as it barrels across a field, and then it gets hit with a MG-34 and a thirid to half of the squad is turn into parts. Is a great thing, I had a 20mm German Flak wipe out my 12 man squad riding on a Sherman as well. No invisiable shield for the riders any more[&o]

[baevans99]

I like the changes with 8.4. The most notable (and pleasing) changes I have seen:

1. Troops riding in/on vehicles is risky when close to the front lines.
2. Getting lots of Advance and Assault missions early in the German Long Campaign.
3. AI is purchasing and using better units. Poland troops were using a layered defense, lots of horse calvary up front with tanks scattered among and slightly behind the troopers. Back behind the main line of defense the Anti-tank guns and Infantry guns are placed on the hills. Makes capturing the Victory Hexs quite dangerous after punching though the main line of defense. I am interested to see how the Brits perform in France (my next battle). AI still isn't all that smart but at least I feel like there is some plan to the purchases and troop placement.

[robot]

Ok I eat my previous words spoken in haste before. I made it a point to sit and think a little about the 3 long campaigns i have going at the present time. So far out of the four battles the Germans have had against the Polish army. Only one was a defend and one was an assault and the other two were advances. Much much better I have to say. The two battles Japan have had against Russia both were advances so far. Thats the one I finished and the one I am in now. True Russia seemed to have more artty dropping on me. But I looked at the roster after the first battle and there was only 10 btty of 100mm. Plus they did not have as much in the way of heavy armor in these battles in the early part of the war. Where I believed in earlier versions every tank in the Russian arsenal came at me or so it seemed.

The same with the poles lots of troopers on horse and very little in the way of heavy armor. Even tho again it seemed I was being hit with every thing in the way of artty including the kitchen sink. Artty was also placed around the rear in various places to slow any of my troops from getting to the rear flags. Tanks although not the staggering amounts from before were placed as rear guards around the flags. Very nice very nice indeed dam sly Russians.

So all in all I must say there has been a Major improvement and I believe it will be a thousand times better to play the long campaign now. Guys I will eat crow gladly while I go merrily around shooting up the country side.

I have really payed attention to the MMG after this thread started. And like all the responses I too have been seeing much better firing from them. Before it was hard for my MG to get many kills. Already at least 3 MG have 4 kills or less to there credit. The enemy seems more likely to try and take out a MG now due to there acurate fire then say a tank sitting right next to one. Even out to 300 or 400 yards they seem to take down some of the enemy troops. Plus a Russian 7.62 DP gun took out one of my Japenese light tanks with a lucky hit.

A very excellent job of improving a great game and making it now the premiere one. Thanks to all the people who devoted there time and energy on this project.[8D]

[soldier]

The destruction of tank riders is a big improvement. [:D]
I still get the super narrow maps no matter what i do, making the long campaign nearly unplayable for me and smoke is still a solid barrier against fire ! [&:] and there is a lot of smoke in this game
Good but overall a lost opportunity for real change

[Riun T]

Hey guys, I've only played two battles since 8.4 patching and find the changes most challenging,but discovered upon trying to restart from my last saved slot that the computer is giving me anphibious assaults and then switching the land with the water and my deploy line is on the furthest inland boarder.? what causes my LST's,landingcraft and support ships to appear on the land side of the map ?? RT

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: soldier

The destruction of tank riders is a big improvement. [:D]
I still get the super narrow maps no matter what i do, making the long campaign nearly unplayable for me and smoke is still a solid barrier against fire ! [&:] and there is a lot of smoke in this game
Good but overall a lost opportunity for real change

Well, in my first two battles of a German long campaign (Sept-Oct 1939), both maps have been 60 hexes (3000 m) wide (north to south). My core force Kampfgruppe is a full infantry battalion, plus a tank company and other attached units.

The only curious things I've seen so far--(1) a partially disabled Polish AC was finished off by a burst from an MG in one battle--this is a very rare occurrence, but it can happen. (2) Sometimes an armored vehicle's surviving crew will bail out just before the AFV "brews up" a split second later--the occasional delay in the explosion is a nice touch of realism, IMO. "Scheisse--we're finished! Let's get the hell out of here, guys!"

[Warrior]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

Just downloaded (paid for it) a number of Glenn Miller songs.

Glenn Miller RULES! ...

Michael Wood

I'll take the Andrews Sisters... better looking. [;)]

[Major Destruction]

ORIGINAL: Alby

6) In 1944 of the long WWII campaign, the computer opponent will receive more troops, if the human is playing Axis and fewer, if he is playing Allied. This effect becomes greater in 1945.

Can you explain this?

More troops than what?

Does this mean a higher percentage of infantry versus armour or more units than the player if the player is playing Axis?

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Example for meeting engagement:

In 1944, if the human player is German or Japanese and has a core + reinforcement vaue of, say 100 points, then the computer opponent will get 125 points.

In 1944, if the human player is Allied and has a core + reinforcement vaue of, say 100 points, then the computer opponent will get 75 points.

In 1945, the difference changes from 1/4 to 1/3.

How the computer opponent spends the points (more tanks, infantry or what ever), is up to the mission type and pick lists.

Hope this Helps...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

ORIGINAL: Alby

6) In 1944 of the long WWII campaign, the computer opponent will receive more troops, if the human is playing Axis and fewer, if he is playing Allied. This effect becomes greater in 1945.

Can you explain this?

More troops than what?

Does this mean a higher percentage of infantry versus armour or more units than the player if the player is playing Axis?

[Gloo]

Michael, your improvements to SPWaW have really transformed the game experience...

I must confess I was (very) sceptical about such an assertion! I quit playing WaW for quite a long time now because I was disapointed about many things regarding the gameplay (smoke; HMGs; units detection; infantry combats, and so on). Anyway, I managed to obtain a copy of the last release (v8.4), intending to have a look at it, just to be sure, just in case... . And then... Woah! So many aspects of the gameplay have been revised from the 7.1 version, and for the best! It's amazing how the game is different to play now. Almost every complaint I had about it (or the H2H version) have been addressed. I've been really impressed and had fun playing SP WaW, again. I started with a serie of tests to get a feel about what have changed (or have not). I set up some short battles (AI vs AI; open terrain and clear view; human buy for both sides and deploy for one of them, alternatively attacking or defending). I mainly tested inf. vs inf./tanks and tanks vs tanks combats. In the preferences screen I tweaked some things progressively, like the Searching option (from 100% down to 60% incrementaly). Then, I hit Start and watched the show. First impressions where really good and here are some of my conclusions. Firstly, the retraiting squads pop far less smoke and that's GOOD! The units seem to open reaction fire with much more pertinence (they use the appropriate weapon (MMGs/HMGs) at long range (and opfire around 400m) instead of rifles at maximum range...). The detection of moving units (wether they are infantry or vehicules) seems to be better addressed (I think Searching at 70% is a good value but it must be investigated further). The dugged in troops seem to be harder to spot or hit (comparatively to the moving ones) than they were in the previous releases. Finally and to the contrary of what I read here in a preceeding post (maybe about the 8.2 version?), the MMGs and HMGs are really deadlier! On an open field with clear view, 3 platoons of HMGs 42 repeatedly repelled 3 companies of soviet infantry. The average killing score was around 3 to 5 on the 12 men squads and 1 to 2 on the reduced ones (6-7 men or the small units like AT or Maxim teams). Occasionnaly, a burst could even wipe an entire squad out (hopefully, it's fairely rare though)! Don't know if all that is "realistic" but it seems to be damn funnier to play than it used to be and that's exactly what had begun to be missing in the game, at least for me. ) So here I am to join the gang and say a big THANK YOU!

Just one mumbling of complaint: ) will we see tanks reversing instead of turning back, on day?! It's been nicely addressed by the Camo Group on WinSPMBT so, it can be done!

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

It's too early to tell but the sheer joy of seeing a T-34 loading with 10 men hanging on for dear life as it barrels across a field, and then it gets hit with a MG-34 and a thirid to half of the squad is turn into parts. Is a great thing, I had a 20mm German Flak wipe out my 12 man squad riding on a Sherman as well. No invisiable shield for the riders any more[&o]

havn't had much chance yet to play 8.4 but that facet i immediately noticed. Right on!

Also noticed a big improvement in the Country Training values.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


Also noticed a big improvement in the Country Training values.

Some folks aren't happy with the experience level changes, but I think they are much more historical than before. For example, a German core force I picked in 1939 had an average exp level of 68--not overwhelming, but without that advantage you'd have no chance in replicating the early blitzkrieg victories. This has been the bane of wargame designers for decades--to achieve the historical results, you have to make the Germans APPEAR to be better--that's caused endless debates.

In contrast, a US Marine Corps core force I picked for August 1942 had an average exp level of 59. This is realistic, in that most of the rapidly-expanding USMC only joined up AFTER Pearl Harbor--the hard-core of combat- experienced NCOs and officers who had fought in the "Banana Wars" of the 30s were split and split again to create new units. This is a practice that the Marines followed throughout WWII--the "FNGs" always had a leavening of experienced leaders & platoon sergeants, which goes a long way towards explaining how the newly-created Marine divisions kept their high-quality and consistently-outstanding level of combat performance.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


Also noticed a big improvement in the Country Training values.

Some folks aren't happy with the experience level changes, but I think they are much more historical than before.

I agree. I was dismayed when the recent updates all but made all the countries generic in their experience. It seemed that everyone was making an argument for their favorite minor or major country and how their troops were really much better than previously portrayed. End result.....vanilla country training. Sorry...but everyone cant all be competant at all times. I called it the Politically Correct Country training period [:(]

Then there was the USarmy exp starting in 43 higher than the UK who'd been fighting since 39....that was fun [:D]

Agree also on USMC...the general assumption is that the entire corp was an elite group but in reality they had been rapidly expanded with alot of green drafts but some of the formations at the sharp point had the advantage of a good sprinking of "old breed" professional soldiers + good leaders.

Well familiar with this issue from over in WitP.....USMC and Oz Divisions enter the game with exp 90 ratings which is really not justified. The USMC for the reasons already given and in the case of Oz divisions returning from the desert, well yes they were battle hardened from that fighting but they were not yet aclimitized to Jungle warfare and they had some hard lessons to learn before they took the title from the Japanese in the Owen Stanley mountains.

[FNG]

With regard to country training, it does appear initially to be more realistic - the downside is that the Soviets are remarkably easy to beat in '41 in a German long campaign that started in '39. The net result is that the better quality troops get even better more quickly, because of the number of enemy units that they destroy. Although the initial values look really good, I think that this does skew the long campaign over time if you play one of the 'better earlier' nations. I will try a Soviet campaign soon, starting in '41 to see how it pans out from that side of things.

In eight battles (1 vs. Poland, 2 vs. France, 2 vs. Britain (North Africa), 3 vs. Soviet Union) I have not had a single foot unit or artillery piece destroyed, and only lost a handful of tanks (all crews have been recovered). Out 22 tanks in my core force, about 25% are already elite. In the infantry, I am using a reinforced Rifle Company (standard + 1 x Spec Ops, 2 x Engineers) and again, about 25% are elite already and another 25% or so are very close. My motorcycle recon platoon are all elite.

On the plus side, far outweighing the country training issue, the AI seems to be far better in how it chooses and deploys its units, MGs are now real terrors (a good thing IMO), air strikes generally seem to be a bit cleverer at target selection but can still get it wrong with the occasional blue-on blue (another good thing IMO), and there is an unquantifiable sense of 'betterness' about the game. I've been playing since SP1 and this is just the icing on the cake. Thanks to all involved.