Newbie Question: Release as Protectorate and What Happened in Poland

[Dayvit781]

Hi all,

I appreciate any help you can give me with the following situation:

I'm Russia and have formed a protectorate with Poland (it's huge - and a great victory). Their provinces are with the striped lines and I'm not able to develop them. Exactly as I expected as a protectorate.

But after gobbling up other country's provinces (ceded to me in a treaty and when I conquer a protectorate), they become actual provinces of mine - full color and ability to develop. I've heard that being too big is bad and I would very much like to release some of these provinces into protectorates. (Release as Vassal for those familiar with EUII). But I can't figure out how to do it?
On the one hand, for example, it still thinks Karlsburg is a protectorate of Britain on the diplomacy screen, even though it's fully mine. In either case, I've tried clicking on "Form Protectorate" but nothing happens. Is there any way I can do this?

Secondly, I don't know how this happened, but as I mentioned before, I had a protectorate over Poland. All of a sudden, in one turn, Krakow is independent and every other former Polish province is mine - full color and ability to build. Then it becomes a protectorate of France and the Polish provinces return to dashed status.

I formed a treaty with France where it would release Krakow, and it did and then all... well anyway, you see the problem. What's going on here? Why do the provinces keep changing between protectorate and fully mine? I quit when Britain took over Krakow and the huge army there. There were like a million people in that army and it was a one province country.

Thank you!



Edit: If EarlPembroke is here, I just noticed that he wrote of the same problem in the thread "if you start in 1792."

[Naomi]

I gave up on my line of thinking for explanation, on reading 1 million-strong troops.

[Mr. Z]

I've heard that being too big is bad and I would very much like to release some of these provinces into protectorates. (Release as Vassal for those familiar with EUII). But I can't figure out how to do it?

Liberate Province--it should be an option from the menu that pops up when you right-click on a province, but if you don't see it there, go to the Diplomacy screen, and select "Country Details" from the "View Relations" tab. Scroll down until you find the province you want, and click the "L" button.

On the one hand, for example, it still thinks Karlsburg is a protectorate of Britain on the diplomacy screen, even though it's fully mine. In either case, I've tried clicking on "Form Protectorate" but nothing happens. Is there any way I can do this?

Karlsburg a protectorate of Britain? Are you sure you don't mean Austria?

Could you send a couple of screenshots showing the situation?

Secondly, I don't know how this happened, but as I mentioned before, I had a protectorate over Poland. All of a sudden, in one turn, Krakow is independent and every other former Polish province is mine - full color and ability to build. Then it becomes a protectorate of France and the Polish provinces return to dashed status.

I believe this is a bug, which will be dealt with in a forthcoming patch.

[Ralegh]

In COG, there are countries (able to have their own troops) and there are provinces. [All the 89 countries are listed on the Country Details list - if they are on that list, they can have their own forces!]

Many are the same thing - Bessarabia is a single province that is also a country. There are many provinces (over a hundred) that cannot be countries - Austria or Illyria provinces, for example [there are 214 provinces in the game, including the 40 or so sea areas]. There are some countries with names that are different from any province (Poland and Veneto for example), but they still have a hard coded capital - the capital city of the major province you would expect, so its just a slightly different name without that having any influence on the game (besides confusing me).

[There is no difference between a province deep in Russia and a province in Poland: it is either capable of being a country in its own right, or it is not. There is no concept of "home nation", race or religion in COG countries/provinces.]

COG does not have a list of what provinces or countries can be part of other countries - it is free form. So theoretically, Illyria province could be part of Poland, for example. Poland could also either "own" Veneto (for example) as a protectorate, and hence Illyria province as a protectorate, or have Veneto as conquered, which would look like Venice and Illyria were normal provinces, but Illyria would behave oddly.
What do I mean by oddly? If Veneto was conquered, and that brought Illyria into your control, then one month after loosing Veneto, Illyria would go too - their loyalty is to Veneto, not to you.

It could get worse - Poland could have Posen as a protectorate rather than as a province, and Posen could have some other provinces being loyal to it. My head is spinning trying to hold that straight.

So, loosing Warsaw means loosing all the Polish provinces, because you got them as part of Poland. If you had got them independantly, then Warsaw wouldn't matter.

OK - now things get interrupted by a bug - in some circumstances in 1.0 the subordinate province in a protectorate can get seperated from its parent, and the housekeeping code guesses wrong about what to do. Its a bug, I hope it will be fixed soon.

The added complications are:
a) you can't add a province or protectorate to a protectorate, - there is no UI for it. It is setup in the scenario start files (and hence modable)
b) it is not at all easy to tell if a province's loyalty is to you or to a protectorate or province you control. If it is a country, you can look up its loyalty on the Country Details screen, and then compare with the flags visible when you select the country. But sometimes you just can't tell.

Finally, one note: I have put forward a theory that protectorate status should mean less waste - but it is a theory, not a proven fact.

[Dayvit781]

Thank you all for your replies... though my head may be spinning a bit more now.

I didn't want to use the Liberate Province button, because I was afraid it would make it totally independent and I would have to re-subsidize it to become a protectorate. But I will try that in my future game.

Unfortunately, I've saved over my game so I don't have screenshots. I'm playing as Turkey now, trying out some of the new ideas I've learned. This game is very addicting....

Karlsburg and 3 other provinces next to it, did indeed become seduced by Britain. Probably because it was the only power left aside from France that had any force. Austria, Prussia were beaten up by me. Austria was down two about 3 provinces and Sweden was beaten up by Britain. This was a game that started in 1792, and pretty much every province belongs to one of the major powers by now. I think only Switzerland and North Africa are still independent.

To Ralegh: That's very interesting and something I will have to look for. This might explain why sometimes, in sieges, I own the province outright and sometimes it becomes striped ownership. I was previously thinking that if it was a protectorate of a country then it becomes yours automatically, but if they owned it, then you would only control the province. (I guess this is similar to what you're saying)

Thank you again for you help. Off to resume my adventures

[Naomi]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

In COG, there are countries (able to have their own troops) and there are provinces. [All the 89 countries are listed on the Country Details list - if they are on that list, they can have their own forces!]

Many are the same thing - Bessarabia is a single province that is also a country. There are many provinces (over a hundred) that cannot be countries - Austria or Illyria provinces, for example [there are 214 provinces in the game, including the 40 or so sea areas]. There are some countries with names that are different from any province (Poland and Veneto for example), but they still have a hard coded capital - the capital city of the major province you would expect, so its just a slightly different name without that having any influence on the game (besides confusing me).

[There is no difference between a province deep in Russia and a province in Poland: it is either capable of being a country in its own right, or it is not. There is no concept of "home nation", race or religion in COG countries/provinces.]

COG does not have a list of what provinces or countries can be part of other countries - it is free form. So theoretically, Illyria province could be part of Poland, for example. Poland could also either "own" Veneto (for example) as a protectorate, and hence Illyria province as a protectorate, or have Veneto as conquered, which would look like Venice and Illyria were normal provinces, but Illyria would behave oddly.
What do I mean by oddly? If Veneto was conquered, and that brought Illyria into your control, then one month after loosing Veneto, Illyria would go too - their loyalty is to Veneto, not to you.

It could get worse - Poland could have Posen as a protectorate rather than as a province, and Posen could have some other provinces being loyal to it. My head is spinning trying to hold that straight.

So, loosing Warsaw means loosing all the Polish provinces, because you got them as part of Poland. If you had got them independantly, then Warsaw wouldn't matter.

OK - now things get interrupted by a bug - in some circumstances in 1.0 the subordinate province in a protectorate can get seperated from its parent, and the housekeeping code guesses wrong about what to do. Its a bug, I hope it will be fixed soon.

The added complications are:
a) you can't add a province or protectorate to a protectorate, - there is no UI for it. It is setup in the scenario start files (and hence modable)
b) it is not at all easy to tell if a province's loyalty is to you or to a protectorate or province you control. If it is a country, you can look up its loyalty on the Country Details screen, and then compare with the flags visible when you select the country. But sometimes you just can't tell.

Finally, one note: I have put forward a theory that protectorate status should mean less waste - but it is a theory, not a proven fact.

Your explanation is very impressively helpful, though after reading it, I feel like adding confusion to incomprehension. (My bad, I am not that smart. [:'(]) By way of this thread, I would like to question if it is really worth more to vassalise (turn into a protectorate) a conquered. Putting aside a protectorate's much less reliable loyalty (for which we more easily lose possession of it whether to an invading force or to just a diplomat's inflammatory speeches), we have no say in how it is run (so we can't vote for its development into a milk cow or a privotal factory of military units). Admittedly, its minor levies may be of use, though they still cost upkeep and possibly even supplies (right?). If a kingdom (or a federalist political body) is created, we are prone to losing everything of it once its nucleus is not with us (as the member provinces may look upon this nucleus province for leadership, which we just don't stay sure). @(~,~)@

[Ralegh]

I would like to question if it is really worth more to vassalise (turn into a protectorate) a conquered.

I agree with your reservations completely. I am trying to figure some of this out at the moment. The only reason I know of to create a protectorate IMHO is to get the corps counter or army counters of those few who get those. Plus I suppose Saxony creates Lancers!
- If you beat up their army and then free them, do you get any military from them, or it is nulled? [At the moment I think it is nulled.]
- If an enemy controls their forces and you conquer and free the protectorate, do you get the forces? or does the previous owner keep them? Do they swap over in place, or fly back home?

BTW, if an enemy wanted a particular province and is attacking you to get it, consider making it a protectorate. They they have to make you liberate it, rather than just taking it. And if they forget to make you honour its neutrality, you take it back before they can.

Finally, in my experience, provinces I make into protectorate seem to keep the development settings I set up, so I have even freed a protectorate so I could re-conquer it, set its sliders, and then make it a protectorate again, now producing the right stuff!

[Naomi]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

I would like to question if it is really worth more to vassalise (turn into a protectorate) a conquered.

I agree with your reservations completely. I am trying to figure some of this out at the moment. The only reason I know of to create a protectorate IMHO is to get the corps counter or army counters of those few who get those. Plus I suppose Saxony creates Lancers!
- If you beat up their army and then free them, do you get any military from them, or it is nulled? [At the moment I think it is nulled.]
- If an enemy controls their forces and you conquer and free the protectorate, do you get the forces? or does the previous owner keep them? Do they swap over in place, or fly back home?

BTW, if an enemy wanted a particular province and is attacking you to get it, consider making it a protectorate. They they have to make you liberate it, rather than just taking it. And if they forget to make you honour its neutrality, you take it back before they can.

Finally, in my experience, provinces I make into protectorate seem to keep the development settings I set up, so I have even freed a protectorate so I could re-conquer it, set its sliders, and then make it a protectorate again, now producing the right stuff!

Thanks for your response. I would like to contribute some findings and opinions of mine.
*I tried to fight some minors, brought them to my knees to find myself awarded with 1 to 2 regular units (not out of their provinces' production planning). I treated such units as defectors of their former countries.
*I didn't go so far as to free the provinces that were formerly a protectorate of another nation (like I said, I didn't think highly of vassalisation). But the military units of any kind (with a container) were still existent and under control of their ex-master. I regarded it debatable.
*Concerning freeing a province to prolong ownership, I don't really understand it. When a nation came to invade my protectorate (I inherited at the start of a scenario) and break into the city, it just changed hands and belonged to the invader. That's why I tended to keep all my conquereds just as what they had been. At least I would still be the sole legitimate owner (and could get them back effortlessly/automatically with peace) even if they were invaded and occupied.
*I remember I couldn't interfere with the infrastructure improvement in a protectorate. I did give priority to those parts with bearing on enhanced military upgrading capability.
*I played on quick battle solution, special units like lancers having limited appeal to me.