Hi Everyone,
This isn't strictly a SPWAW post, but seeing as people are talking about the Stalingrad campaign this might be a good time to talk about the movie and Craig's book, Enemy at the Gates. I apologize if this topic has been broached before but the search function was taking an eternity tonight.
Oh, and don't read if you haven't seen, SPOILER alert.
I just saw Enemy for the first time yesterday, and I thought it was excellent, though historically it is a bit dim at times and the love story, as is common in today's movies, was just too much--though in his book Craig says Vasilli and Tanya not only hooked up, but that she became a real crack shot and racked up dozens of dead Germans.
One example of historical fudging: having Maj. Koenig (Ed Harris) personally hang Sacha was a bit of a stretch, if you've read the book, and seems to have been put in just so Koenig seems more evil, because otherwise, I was rooting for him the entire time, since (a) Harris is a real man, as opposed to those other two guys, and (b) he was much better than Vasilli. Historically wasn't Sacha hanged with other "spies?" And wasn't his role somewhat different?
My question is, what do you guys think about this film? Were the tanks right? Some looked like PzIII's and others like IV's, and I thought I saw a knocked out KV-1 somewhere but could be mistaken.
I must say I was darned impressed by the props, uniforms, SETS!, equipment, explosions, music, etc. Except for that reeking love story and stupid brotherhood/competition over women thing, which was just too much like the summer's Pearl Harbor.
I think it would make a neat and unconventional SPWAW scenario, sort of like Saving Private Ryan but with more snipers and a bigger map.
<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Stalingrad--Enemy at the Gates
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Stalingrad--Enemy at the Gates
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
Agree with you about the love story, too big!
About film I liked the first minutes, when there were some interesting combat action, like the german airplanes on the Volga or the russian charge with NKVD troops on the back to kill who retreat with the Maxim machine gun.
Also agree with a possible scenario, I hope that someone can do it!
Regards. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
About film I liked the first minutes, when there were some interesting combat action, like the german airplanes on the Volga or the russian charge with NKVD troops on the back to kill who retreat with the Maxim machine gun.
Also agree with a possible scenario, I hope that someone can do it!
Regards. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
I wished the battle scenes where a lot better and longer then what they were though. I thought they could have been better. But I have high standards for movies. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
I thought it was a ok movie, nothing special though. No world war 2 movie comapres to saving private ryan in battle scenes though.
I thought it was a ok movie, nothing special though. No world war 2 movie comapres to saving private ryan in battle scenes though.
I also agree that the love scene was a real distraction. The few battle scenes were excelent but they should have been longer and more involved. Overall the movie was good-not outstanding though. The best parts of the movie were the scenes between the snipers-this should have been the focus. The book was really great.
"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman
yes,i think,too the love scenes were boring,if i want sex or loves scenes i refer to love films or porns <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
but, the beginning of the film was really great. the burning and destroyed city in the background with the stuka attack on the boats.
i wanted more combat scenes,too.
overall: an average movie with average actors (ed harris was okay)but with cool scenes in the destroyed city.
and it was not logical at all the outcome of the duell. but who cares? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
but, the beginning of the film was really great. the burning and destroyed city in the background with the stuka attack on the boats.
i wanted more combat scenes,too.
overall: an average movie with average actors (ed harris was okay)but with cool scenes in the destroyed city.
and it was not logical at all the outcome of the duell. but who cares? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Greetings
Frank
Frank
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I thought Ed Harris made a perfect Prussian Officer-Maj. Koenig.
The short hair, and just the right amount of arrogance.
I read the book-"War of the Rats", and was not impressed, I was also not impressed w/ the movie of Enemy at the Gates, but did like Ed Harris' portrayal of the role. I don't know why I wasn't impressed, but I just wasn't-I think it was the love story, and also, I saw the movie "Stalingrad" in German many years ago-wasn't this movie done by the same guys who did "Das Boot"?
Anyway...
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
The short hair, and just the right amount of arrogance.
I read the book-"War of the Rats", and was not impressed, I was also not impressed w/ the movie of Enemy at the Gates, but did like Ed Harris' portrayal of the role. I don't know why I wasn't impressed, but I just wasn't-I think it was the love story, and also, I saw the movie "Stalingrad" in German many years ago-wasn't this movie done by the same guys who did "Das Boot"?
Anyway...
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Maybe Ed Harris was a bit old, but does anyone know how old the historical Maj. Koenig was? It seemed like they aged Harris a little bit for the role. I don't know much about real snipers, but it seems plausible for there to be one who is 50--I mean, if they play their cards right they don't have to do so much running, and the scope might compensate for some degree of age-related reduction in eyesight.
One thing that seemed peculiar about the movie was that it couldn't seem to decide on its own opinion about the USSR. I rooted for the Germans most of the time since even the SS seem less oppressive than those NKVD dudes (and that love story!).
But the end of the movie and the credits tell a different story, and seemed like they were almost designed to give you a rush of patriotism...but for the USSR? "Vasilli... was made a Hero of the Soviet Union," while Hunt for Red October-ish choral arrangements bring out the Bolshevik in all of us.
I've seen "Stalingrad" too, and that was focussed less on the struggle between Germans and Russians and more on the conventional (for movies) class struggle between officers & enlisted men--think "Cross of Iron" with real German actors--but without Sgt. Steiner!
Well anyway, thanks for the thoughts, guys!
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the equipment? And was I seeing things when I thought I saw a KV-1 about 2/3 of the way through?
One thing that seemed peculiar about the movie was that it couldn't seem to decide on its own opinion about the USSR. I rooted for the Germans most of the time since even the SS seem less oppressive than those NKVD dudes (and that love story!).
But the end of the movie and the credits tell a different story, and seemed like they were almost designed to give you a rush of patriotism...but for the USSR? "Vasilli... was made a Hero of the Soviet Union," while Hunt for Red October-ish choral arrangements bring out the Bolshevik in all of us.
I've seen "Stalingrad" too, and that was focussed less on the struggle between Germans and Russians and more on the conventional (for movies) class struggle between officers & enlisted men--think "Cross of Iron" with real German actors--but without Sgt. Steiner!
Well anyway, thanks for the thoughts, guys!
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the equipment? And was I seeing things when I thought I saw a KV-1 about 2/3 of the way through?
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
Maybe Ed Harris was a bit old, but does anyone know how old the historical Maj. Koenig was? It seemed like they aged Harris a little bit for the role. I don't know much about real snipers, but it seems plausible for there to be one who is 50--I mean, if they play their cards right they don't have to do so much running, and the scope might compensate for some degree of age-related reduction in eyesight.
One thing that seemed peculiar about the movie was that it couldn't seem to decide on its own opinion about the USSR. I rooted for the Germans most of the time since even the SS seem less oppressive than those NKVD dudes (and that love story!).
But the end of the movie and the credits tell a different story, and seemed like they were almost designed to give you a rush of patriotism...but for the USSR? "Vasilli... was made a Hero of the Soviet Union," while Hunt for Red October-ish choral arrangements bring out the Bolshevik in all of us.
I've seen "Stalingrad" too, and that was focussed less on the struggle between Germans and Russians and more on the conventional (for movies) class struggle between officers & enlisted men--think "Cross of Iron" with real German actors--but without Sgt. Steiner!
Well anyway, thanks for the thoughts, guys!
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the equipment? And was I seeing things when I thought I saw a KV-1 about 2/3 of the way through?
One thing that seemed peculiar about the movie was that it couldn't seem to decide on its own opinion about the USSR. I rooted for the Germans most of the time since even the SS seem less oppressive than those NKVD dudes (and that love story!).
But the end of the movie and the credits tell a different story, and seemed like they were almost designed to give you a rush of patriotism...but for the USSR? "Vasilli... was made a Hero of the Soviet Union," while Hunt for Red October-ish choral arrangements bring out the Bolshevik in all of us.
I've seen "Stalingrad" too, and that was focussed less on the struggle between Germans and Russians and more on the conventional (for movies) class struggle between officers & enlisted men--think "Cross of Iron" with real German actors--but without Sgt. Steiner!
Well anyway, thanks for the thoughts, guys!
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the equipment? And was I seeing things when I thought I saw a KV-1 about 2/3 of the way through?
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.
The part of that movie which stuck in my craw wasn't the love story; it was the air raids. Those twin engine bombers were flying so low that none of them would possibly have survived the fragments of their own bombs, let alone the small arms and AA fire of every Russian gun out to the horizon.
Ok, spooking a sniper with a real looking raid wouldn't have made sense to the audience. But still, a rooftop level air raid was just silly.
Ok, spooking a sniper with a real looking raid wouldn't have made sense to the audience. But still, a rooftop level air raid was just silly.
Perhaps our German bro's can assist here, but hate to burst bubbles:
The story related in "Enemy at the Gates" is completely fictional, to wit:
Recent German research in Wehrmacht and Waffen SS archives, reveals no "Maj Koenig" or any other officer in charge of the "sniper school". The German army didn't have snipers, in the sense of independently operating two-man teams until AFTER Stalingrad (one of the lessons learned about urban combat). Each German company IIRC, had a "Scharfschuetzen" sharpshooter, with an accurized Kar98 rifle-no scope, no extensive training. His mission was to support the company by suppressing crew-served weapons, opportunity shots at officers/NCOs etc. But his missions conformed to the Company Commander's intent.
On the Russian/Soviet side, sniper returns for the time frame indicated in the book, late 1942 show NO unusual sniper activity from the German side, and NO mention of any kills of note.
Looked at operationally, the commandant would not be the best choice anyway. Ideally, one would send a senior INSTRUCTOR, i.e. someone whose skills are continually honed through practice in the curriculum; not an administrator.
I heard that the PzIIIs were specially contracted for the movie. Built by German companies w/out the armor and armament obviously. I was living in Germany when the film was being cast, and the word went out for crews to drive the vehicles-would have been an interesting vacation. Believe the SPWs were also specially built, but they may have been museum pieces from Munster...
The story related in "Enemy at the Gates" is completely fictional, to wit:
Recent German research in Wehrmacht and Waffen SS archives, reveals no "Maj Koenig" or any other officer in charge of the "sniper school". The German army didn't have snipers, in the sense of independently operating two-man teams until AFTER Stalingrad (one of the lessons learned about urban combat). Each German company IIRC, had a "Scharfschuetzen" sharpshooter, with an accurized Kar98 rifle-no scope, no extensive training. His mission was to support the company by suppressing crew-served weapons, opportunity shots at officers/NCOs etc. But his missions conformed to the Company Commander's intent.
On the Russian/Soviet side, sniper returns for the time frame indicated in the book, late 1942 show NO unusual sniper activity from the German side, and NO mention of any kills of note.
Looked at operationally, the commandant would not be the best choice anyway. Ideally, one would send a senior INSTRUCTOR, i.e. someone whose skills are continually honed through practice in the curriculum; not an administrator.
I heard that the PzIIIs were specially contracted for the movie. Built by German companies w/out the armor and armament obviously. I was living in Germany when the film was being cast, and the word went out for crews to drive the vehicles-would have been an interesting vacation. Believe the SPWs were also specially built, but they may have been museum pieces from Munster...
"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel
Yeah, certainly both the Jude Law and Rachel Weisz characters were real folks. However, according to Russian sources, they didn't "work" together, nor were they romantically involved (though, they may have been obviously reluctant to admit that to Party researchers...).
Other stuff in the movie is quite accurate, and certainly impressive. Another kudo is the appreciation it generated for the Great Patriotic War in the west, especially the US.
One of the best scenes from a historical standpoint is on the Deleted Scenes of the DVD. That's where Bob Hoskins (excellent portrayal as Khruschev, though his role in the battle is overstated) discusses what Stalin REALLY did after the invasion. Completely accurate; makes one wonder what would've happened had Hitler a brain and accepted his cease-fire proposals. Stalin would make two altogether, not counting his peace feelers to Finlan.
Other stuff in the movie is quite accurate, and certainly impressive. Another kudo is the appreciation it generated for the Great Patriotic War in the west, especially the US.
One of the best scenes from a historical standpoint is on the Deleted Scenes of the DVD. That's where Bob Hoskins (excellent portrayal as Khruschev, though his role in the battle is overstated) discusses what Stalin REALLY did after the invasion. Completely accurate; makes one wonder what would've happened had Hitler a brain and accepted his cease-fire proposals. Stalin would make two altogether, not counting his peace feelers to Finlan.
"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel