BBC - Hiroshima

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

For those who get BBC this Sunday at 21:00 there is a program on the A-bombing of Hiroshima, re-creating some of it I believe and talking to those who dropped the bomb and those who saw it/endured it.

Should be interesting.

Steven

[wild_Willie2]

I already saw it last weekend.

They talk to the people who loaded and actually ARMED the weapon, they also talk to survivors of the bomb and their stories. One of the most haunting scene's is the footage of modern day Hiroshima where they show the imprints of human bodies burned into the stone forever........

[Speedysteve]

Sheesh. Does sound haunting!

Worth a watch then?

[wild_Willie2]

Yeah definatly, it was a very nice and educative program...

[Speedysteve]

Will watch it then.

There you go then all. BBC 1 21:00 Sunday 07th August 2005

[keeferon01]

Im trying to remember a documentary some years back, when the atomic bomber crews went back to Japan, I wonder if anybody else remembers this docu.

[Mützeglatze]

I Saw it too,on Tuesdayevening in Germany on ZDF.It was really Interessting.

[USSLockwood]

ok, here's a firestorm of debate:
Was it the A-bombing or the Soviet declaration of war the forced Japan to capitulate?

[Nikademus]

probably more the Abomb since it was rather closer to home. The Japanese were aware for some time of the Soviet buildup but they were in "wishful thinking" mode. Many Japanese were looking for a way out anyway before both events occured....the Abomb droppings, followed by the latest bad news from the front just allowed the doves and the Emperor to win out over the hawks.....but even then it was a close thing since Hawk elements tried to thwart the Emperor's broadcast.

[LittleJoe]

Id say moreso the Soviet declaration, they had been trying to gain peace with the allies through them, must of realised it was eiether total distruction of Japan, or surrender.

And the two atomic bombs no doubt made them realease that that destruction could come a lot quicker to them, with little allied loss, no "decisive battle" on the mainland.

[USSLockwood]

I read recently that the Japanese scientific community was of the opinion that the U.S. could not have more than a few bombs (by bomb, I am referring, of course, to fission weapons). Physics in Japan at that time was world class (and of course remains so today). I've read "Hirohitio and the making of Modern Japan" and the impression I got was that the threat of a worker's revolution (aided by the fortuitous presence of the Red Army) was the final straw. Just my humble opinion.

[Nikademus]

I wonder why this would be "Firestorm" of controversy anyway? a destroyed fleet...cut off from resources and imports.....people starving....cities burned to the ground......now we have Abombs and Soviets......threat of home island invasion......

take your pick. In the end they surrendered. thats all that matters. no more fighting...no more death

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: doktor

I read recently that the Japanese scientific community was of the opinion that the U.S. could not have more than a few bombs (by bomb, I am referring, of course, to fission weapons). Physics in Japan at that time was world class (and of course remains so today). I've read "Hirohitio and the making of Modern Japan" and the impression I got was that the threat of a worker's revolution (aided by the fortuitous presence of the Red Army) was the final straw. Just my humble opinion.

A couple books I read both seemed to be of the opinion that it could have been a combination of two atomic bombs AND the entry of the Soviet Union into the war which was the last straw for the Japanese to finally surrender.

I never visisted Hiroshima but I did get tha chance to visit Nagasaki when the Midway pulled into Sasebo. Visiting ground zero and the museum/park they had there was a sombering experience (though I am not sorry the US dropped the bombs). I AM still surprised that some Marines made it out of Nagasaki alive though - they were tacky enough to wear t-shirts with a mushroom cloud on it saying "Made in America Tested in Japan".

[LittleJoe]

ering experience (though I am not sorry the US dropped the bombs). I AM still surprised that some Marines made it out of Nagasaki alive though - they were tacky enough to wear t-shirts with a mushroom cloud on it saying "Made in America Tested in Japan".

I dont think tacky is the word for that. [8|]

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe

ering experience (though I am not sorry the US dropped the bombs). I AM still surprised that some Marines made it out of Nagasaki alive though - they were tacky enough to wear t-shirts with a mushroom cloud on it saying "Made in America Tested in Japan".

I dont think tacky is the word for that. [8|]

I agree. On the bus from the ship to Nagasaki they were very boisterous like they were going to a party. On the way back to the ship they were VERY quiet.

It's been over 20 years so I'm not sure if any of the senior sailors on the trip made any comments to the MARDET commander or not but I do remember there were some chiefs and senior chiefs were were pretty upset that they'd wear something like that off the ship and in Japan of all places. Anybody who has served in the Navy knows that you do not want to upset chiefs.

[usersatch]

I saw the tail end of some program on PBS the other nite. It was full of A-bomb apologists saying there was no need to drop the bomb, casualties from the invasion wouldnt have been too bad, etc. My favorite was someone saying that it was unenthical to use the A-bomb on civilians...like the multi-hundred B-29 incediary raids on Jap cities killing as many people was OK???

[Nikademus]

The entire bomber war is wrought with hair splitting exercises.

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: usersatch

I saw the tail end of some program on PBS the other nite. It was full of A-bomb apologists saying there was no need to drop the bomb, casualties from the invasion wouldnt have been too bad, etc. My favorite was someone saying that it was unenthical to use the A-bomb on civilians...like the multi-hundred B-29 incediary raids on Jap cities killing as many people was OK???

I'm very prejudiced against the Japanese (despite being stationed there on the Midway for 3 years) because the Japanese have NEVER apologized for Pearl Harbor. I also remember seeing a show where a Japanese veteran mentioned the Japanese attempt to build an atomic bomb and stated flat-out that had they developed one they surely would have used it.

Anyways, here is data from page 2,551 of "History of the Second World War", edited by Sir Basil Liddell Hart:

Line up for Operation Olympic:

Troops:
Japanese - 2,300,000 regular troops PLUS 28,000,000 local volunteers
Allies - 650,000 regular troops

Aircraft:
Japanese - 5,350 (confused here but it also implies another 5,350 Kamikaze or that all were Kamikaze)
Allied: 9,000

Aircraft Carriers:
Japanese - 0
Allied - 20

Battleships:
Japanese - 0
Allied - 9

Cruisers:
Japanese - 0
Allied - 22

Destroyers:
Japanese - 19
Allied - 80

Special attack craft (Kamikaze):
Japanese - 3,300

Here's the text that is below the chart word for word:
"The regular Japanese troops facing the 'Olympic' invasion vastly outnumbered the assault force; and in addition to their regular forces the Japanese hoped to mobilise a huge volunteer army, armed mostly with bamboo spears. The US and British naval task forces had no direct opposite numbers at all, for the once-powerful Japanese fleet had been whittled down to vanishing-point in the Battles of the Philippine Sea, of Leyte Gulf, and of Okinawa. But the Japanese fleet of kamikaze vessels - each of them intended to eliminate an enemy ship - could theoretically wipe out the entire invasion fleet; and this was only the naval element of Japan's suicide defence force - exactly half the remaining Japanese aircraft were kamikaze machines. And this was only the battle for Kyushu ... "

It's easy to second-guess things 60 years later but with the 1945-mindset, after the costs of taking just Iwo Jima and Okinawa, Truman's decision to use the bomb was almost a sure thing.

[Nikademus]

I dont necessarily believe that the Japanese 'owe' us an apology for PH since they never intended to attack it before declaring war. Granted this is a hair splitting exercise in that the attack was meant to go off 30minutes after war was declared (would this have lessened American anger any? not much IMO)

Just to play devil's advocate it has been argued that at least PH was a military target and wars in the past have been started without warning. What was later done to the Japanese in retaliation I think more than made up for PH if one wants to count the revenge score.

What does concern me though and where i think apologies are due...is with Japan's treatment of POW's and her record in China and Asia, China in particular has the greatest grievience with Japan. I'm also concerned with current Japanese revisionism that seems bent on not accepting her role in the war and denying that atrocities were done by her military forces (that didn't go down very well in Nanking recently)

The Germans officially accepted their responsibilty for what the Nazi government had done but by and large from what i've read, Japan has not. Even an attempt to understand the radical differences in Japanese culture from the West really dont excuse this IMO.

Anyway as far as PH is concerned....i think it is at least gratifying to see vets from both sides come together and embrace friendship in peacetime. They are a model to live up to.

[USSLockwood]

I seem to recall that the Japanese were either planning for, or considering, the use of chemical weapons in the event of an invasion of the home islands. If the situation had been reversed, and a triumphant Axis was poised to land on the east and west coast of the U.S., would we have (with apologies to A. Lincoln) 'given up with unplayed cards in our hand'? At the very least, the Japanese people would have experienced all that the German people east of the Elbe did.