What was the Soviet to German AFV Ratio??

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:51 am

During the war, the Soviet Union built more than 125,000 AFVs. Germany built some 89,000 AFVs and only 2,000 of them were Tigers and King Tigers.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/newgen.htm

Ross Moorhouse · Post by **Ross Moorhouse** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 1:54 am

1941

Russia 6,590.
Germany 5,200

1942

Russia 24,446
Germany 9,300

1943

Russia 24,089
Germany 19,800

1944

Russia 28,963
Germany 27,300

1945

Russia 15,400
Germany 0

The above figures fro Russia include self-propelled guns. German figure includes self-propelled guns for 1943 & 1944.

These figures are taken from the book "Russia's War' by Richard Overy.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:51 am

Ross: You forgot something. Both nations started producing before '41. "Perhaps" the source I linked was talking about '39 onwards, or maybe when the Germans started gearing up before WWII. What you show accounts for around 62,000 German AFVs, so if it's accurate, and the link I provided is, then obviously the link is describing a longer period of production for the German to reach 89,000. Also that '45 figure for Germany HAS to be a typo. Germany didn't just stop producing AFVs in '45.

Although I've never had the Soviet figures, the link following shows very much the same German production figures of the 89,000 quoted, but you'll note that the date starts with '38, and also 5,713 were produced in '45. http://www.feldgrau.com/afvstats.html

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:32 pm

Let's not forget that the soviet union posessed more than 20.000 tanks before the invasion (even if they were mostly crappy). The german tank fleet was tiny by comparison.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:28 pm

Here is a related question. For the Soviets, what is the ratio of prewar tanks (BTs, T-28's, etc), T34 series and KV series tanks that should be available and when.

I do not like overloading my German forces with Fernands, Tigers & King Tigers etc. as I know that the Germans primarily used PZ IIIs & later PZ IVs. I suppose that the Soviets start primarily with pre-war tanks and few (no?) T-34s. I know some KV's at least were around but how rare are then? I do now know when I should transisiting to a force with lots of T-34s.

Were th KVs used as a main force tank or just to back up T34's. For example the Tigers were in battalions held at Army level. What about the KV's?

Thanks

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:45 pm

Speaking from memory:
The "modern" tanks of WW2 soviet army (KV and T34) entered production in 1940. They were available in some hundreds at the start of the invasion. However, the designs of both tanks were still flawed at that time, in that mechanical reliability (and therefore presence on the actual battlefield) was low. Also, doctrine and organisation were in great evolution at this time, so any kind of force mix could be expected. Overall, one might expect 1 KV, 2 T34, 10 BT and 10 T26 on average (VERY roughly). Still, there naturally was tendency to group similar kinds of tanks, so one would encounter strong cores of the modern tanks from time to time.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 8:54 pm

Larry Holt: I think the website that provided the 89,000 German and 125,000 Soviet figure must be pretty accurate, since we see that Ross's figures including the ommission on '38-'40, alongside the missing '45 data would tend to say the same thing.

As for the Soviet figures, Ross's accounts for only some 99,000. What we're probably looking at is pre-'41 Soviet at 26,000 while pre-war Germany was around 7,000. So while so many talk of 8-to-1 Soviet supremacy and how they really started far out-producing the Germans, actually the Soviets had their best days in '41 ratio-wise (with '45 being second, with Soviets producing roughly at 3-to-1), and the 8-to-1 figure is quite mythic. As I mentioned in the book Russia at War, though the figure's only rough in my head at the moment, one of their finest offensives against what was probably the weakest period for the Germans, they only outdid them in AFVs 4-to-1 in the attack (Russian sources). I also have to wonder since the German figures ran '38-'45 till only May, if the Soviet production is no longer counted past that (though one could compare the entire pre-war through the entire war too) in the war with Japan. Another thing to consider, if we're talking strictly what the Germans and Soviets "could" have thrown against each other, is how much did each lose in other wars prior to facing each other? Part of Germany's problem, of course, is that they have to fight on more than one front while fighting Russia, so naturally you wouldn't see on the Eastern Front, 89,000 German AFVs against 125,000 Soviet, but you might've saw 75,000 against 125,000 in the field (that is if we assume the Russians reached the 125,000 figure by May '45).

You spoke of having too many Tigers etc, but one thing you ought to consider, in considering the total makeup in 44-45, is just what was produced in those years and bits of '43. The myth is that the PZIV long-barrels dominated the German force composition, which is quite wrong. Just going over the figures a bit, you see the super tanks (Tiger, Panther, and King Tiger) out-paced it.

PZIV L43 or L46: 7419
Super Tanks: 7824

OTOH, the SGIII series out-paced them all, but I suppose you'd say it fits into the PZIV category in capabilities (75mm long-barreled): 8587

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]</p>

Ballan · Post by **Ballan** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 4:58 am

The USSR had approx 1,000 of the KV series and 1,000 of the T-34 on June 1941, Germany sent East at this time approx 2,334 AFVs the bulk of which were the light varity.
It should also be noted that many tankers including Wittman considered the anti-tank gun to be the greater threat, as they were mostly invisible untill they fired their first shot often resulting in a kill.
The majority of German AFVs lost in WW2 were due to lack of recovery/fuel and air attack on both fronts.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 7:25 am

Originally posted by Ballan:
...
It should also be noted that many tankers including Wittman considered the anti-tank gun to be the greater threat, as they were mostly invisible untill they fired their first shot often resulting in a kill.
...

Well I concur. ATGs are nearly invisible in the game so Matrix has modeled this well. (too well for my armor loving heart but I can always play with the preferences when I want a beer and pretzels battle to win)