German OOB Artillery snafu?

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:44 pm

I've noticed that there are no availability dates for the following onboard guns in the German OOB:

* 105mm Howitzer
* Captured 122mm Howitzer
* 150mm Howitzer

My guess would be to make it the same as the offboard versions (which have dates) of the same guns. However, what about the 122mm howitzer? That would be a Soviet gun, I would guess. Dates for that? 7/41 and onward?

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 8:46 pm

THe limits onboard arty to what would normally be organic to a Battalion Kampfgruppe. Othere are limited to off-board only as they would be regimental or Divisional assets that would not be organic to tactical units portrayed in the game.

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 9:17 pm

Gute Antwort, Herr Vebber. Ich schдtze es.

Good reply, Mr. Vebber. I appreciate it.

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 8:07 am

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
THe limits onboard arty to what would normally be organic to a Battalion Kampfgruppe. Othere are limited to off-board only as they would be regimental or Divisional assets that would not be organic to tactical units portrayed in the game.

The only problem with this I see Paul is that other countries have access to heavier arty than the germans for onboard use. I know the brits and commenwealth can get the 25lber and IIRC the U.S. can get the 105, while the Germans can only get the 75mm.

Rune Iversen · Post by **Rune Iversen** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 8:41 am

Originally posted by McGib:

The only problem with this I see Paul is that other countries have access to heavier arty than the germans for onboard use. I know the brits and commenwealth can get the 25lber and IIRC the U.S. can get the 105, while the Germans can only get the 75mm.

Well, in fact this is not a åroblem, since the americans had the 105 mm available at regiment level (6 tubes). As for the 25 pounder, it was also used in an anti-tank role (not to mention in abundance because of its poor "throw weight").

This justifies the presence of these weapons onboard, under battalion/regimental command.

As for the german 105/150 mm these were divisional assets, the only battalion/regimental artillery available were mortars (50/81/120mm) and field guns(75/150mm)

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 7:48 am

Saying that a weapon was only available to a certain command level is all well and nice but 88's weren't at the company or battalion level yet the player is not prevented from purchasing them(And how many players have a 39 German campaign wiithout 2 or more 88's?). IMHO the player should be allowed to choose whatever weapon/vehicle he/she wants and leave the realism level to thier discretion. I believe that if the player wants to have a couple of 105's/150's etc on board then they should be allowed. Maybe it was a battery passing thru and the local commander commandeered them for the comming battle?

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 8:41 am

Originally posted by McGib:
Saying that a weapon was only available to a certain command level is all well and nice but 88's weren't at the company or battalion level yet the player is not prevented from purchasing them(And how many players have a 39 German campaign wiithout 2 or more 88's?). IMHO the player should be allowed to choose whatever weapon/vehicle he/she wants and leave the realism level to thier discretion. I believe that if the player wants to have a couple of 105's/150's etc on board then they should be allowed. Maybe it was a battery passing thru and the local commander commandeered them for the comming battle?

Look at it from your opponents point of view, how often during the war was a German 105 or 150mm unit overrun?

The guns that are allowed on map are those that would have been there being fired on by the enemy. 88's included in that.

Unless you plan to put those 105 and 150mm guns on the front line (where the infantry gun versions belong) you don't need them on map. If you plan on ganking the system by parking them next to an ammo dump just so you get unlimited fires, that goes against the need for a prepared firing position, the laying of wire communications, etc, that a German battery needs to function.

To be honest, the Germans have so many advantages, not to mention that they are not forced to fight suffering from starvation, or without ammo that didn't make it there because it is sitting on the bottom of the Med, that I can't see that they need the extra arty.

With the exception of Ardennes '44 I don't think the Germans should even be allowed to buy ammo carriers/dumps from 44 on.
thanks, John.

pax27 · Post by **pax27** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 3:42 pm

Personally I´m much for the freedom of choise in a game that McGib wrote about. But I can´t really see the advantage of on board artillery, apart from the obvious ammo-dump thing. The only real uppside apart from that, I guess, would be that you could carry the arty with you through a campaign and gain some experience. Actually, I think I´m getting in over my head here, now that I think about it <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
But when it comes to artillery, the SP Hummel have the exact same gun and range (in OOB) as the off board arty, but ofcourse it has only one, not four. This would mean that 12 Hummel´s would equal an off board battery of 150mm. In comparison you´d need 1860 points buying the Hummels (without tru troop!) and only 600 points to get the OB 150 mm battery. This feels like a pretty done deal to me, or?
There´s other ways to view this I´m sure, but I´d rather get me some Wurfrahmen and a few ammo-dump/trucks and go a-flaming! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

BTW, I use the Hummel also as a SP anti-infantry gun, or anti-tank for that matter, instead of the various 150mm´s mounted on PzII´s, PzIII´s and Pz38´s. Is that not a sound thing to do, taking in acount there ability to stop in cover, fire some arty one round, and then get in the front line with there reasonable armour and huff and puff until they blow every single fo away.