Map Graphics

[Bull Man]

No doubt, the graphic work in the game is well done, and I am already enjoying playing it. But, at the risk of being a "turd in the punchbowl" I have to raise the question of one graphical aspect of the map. I am completely befuddled as to why a bright white border was placed around all the hex grid lines, center dots and reference numbers. The end result seems more distracting from the map terrain than necessary. This is all the more perplexing since the map landscape is so beautifully done. Wondering if it was just me, I walked across to the graphic arts department at the college where I teach (I'm a humanities professor) and asked some people there, and they were as well confused as to why such a distracting enhancement to the grid was added. In effect, an overlaid hex grid should aid play on the map, not dominate to the point that the eye is visually drawn more to the projecting values of the highlighted grid then the map terrain that recedes behind it.

Just curious mostly, and probably personal preferences will show many don't see the same problem. I recall the old Squad Leader maps which worked well with simple unobtrusive hex lines. So unless Matrix is considering offering reprinted maps (or downloadable file) for sale (I would surely pay for it), I am already at work at scanning and removing the white highlight. The result is already impressive - in my opinion - and hopefully I will soon have all the maps "repaired" and mounted on the reverse sides.

[Scotbot]

I couldn't agree more. The white outlines of the hexgrid draw the eye away from the map graphics way too much. I find myself having to readjust my eyesight when looking at the boards just to see the terrain...it's like looking at one of those poster puzzle things, where it looks like jibberish but then a 3D image pops out if you manage to cross your eyes just right.

Everything else is so great with the game, I'm wondering who at Matrix looked at the boards for the first time and said "Brilliant! Print 'em up!"[&:]

[Magua]

Check out the "First Impressions" thread. You're not the only ones who feel this way.[8|]

[Ichibrothers]

After two years or working with these maps , I don't even see it. In fact, everything else looks Plain-Jane to me now.

Bill

[Hannes]

Funny, but not wrong - I feel pretty much the same. Boy did I hate it, when I first saw it. Meanwhile I even appreciate it, cause it does support me when I play the game. Maybe the best would be a button, where you can fade in/fade out the hexes - either you want to enjoy the scenery, or you want to concentrate on the game.
I also like those games, where the 'administrative' informations are hard to see - yes, that looks great! - but while I play - when terrain is no more asthetic, only part of tactical decisions - it really exhausts my eyes... maybe I am just getting old

[Marc von Martial]

Maybe the best would be a button, where you can fade in/fade out the hexes - either you want to enjoy the scenery, or you want to concentrate on the game.

We will have that with the next game where maps will be on thin rollable LCD mats [;)]

Now seriously. It was a matter of taste among the design team too. I was not very fond of it either, but it doesn´t really bother me anymore.
However for the next game I will surely bring this up again.

[markhwalker]

After two years or working with these maps , I don't even see it. In fact, everything else looks Plain-Jane to me now.

I couldn't agree more, especially on the Plain-Jane side. It originated with Ron Shirtz (at least I think it was his idea), and I've loved it since first glance. Furthermore, I've never spoken with anyone who dislikes it after a playing or two, and I've spoken with hundreds that think it is slicker than greased door knobs... er, or something like that.

I appreciate the input. I'm not sure if I'll include this in the computer version, but it will stay a signature of Lock 'n Load board games, for ever and ever, amen.

Best,
Mark

[Marc von Martial]

it is slicker than greased door knobs

Hehe, something to put in my phrase book [;)]

[Bull Man]

See for Yourself!

[Ichibrothers]

The one on the right makes me feel so lonely............[;)] Like Hannes said....I didn't like it at first, but I really do now. Just think of all the extra LOS opportunieties you have by running an LOS to the edges of the "Halo"!!!

Again...if you are new to LnL.....First off, where ya been!?!?.....Secondly....you'll get used to it. AND..maybe even come to like it!!!

Bill

[Magua]

Enough already with the "get used to it." That is a far too cavalier response considering the number of complaints concerning this issue, and the price of the game. In fact, if I told the consumers of the materials I publish that they'd "get used to it," my butt would be canned out the door so fast it would take the rest of me a week to catch up.

And it quite frankly blows me away that at least two members of the development team have admitted they didn't like it either, but "got used to it." In fact, it baffles me that so many involved in this project see so much wrong with this thing, and still defend it. This has the distinct sound of a pet idea ordered by the boss, and everyone else is afraid to call him on it.

The fact is, you don't "get used" to it. You accept it because you have no choice, and you use and hopefully enjoy the game inspite of it.

But forget aesthetics. Let's look at functionality. Referring to Bull's graphic, does someone want to tell me where the wall is in the map on the left? Ironically the same thing occurred in my Foucarville game. When I stated that my unit was behind the hedge, my novice friend asked "What hedge?" "This one here," I replied pointing with a pencil. "Jeez, you can hardly see it. That's a hedge?" It seems nutty to me to let design get in the way of function unless one feels that having the hexes jump off the map, neon-like enhances function. Maybe I should try putting training wheels on my mountain bike.

Ichi here points out another issue, that the dots and lines are now so wide as to create a rather less specific method for determining LOS than I believe was intended.

Both Ichi and Mark feel that the maps, without the halos look "plain-jane." So, the map graphics as they stand alone are plain-jane? Dull? Boring? That the halos make the difference between an otherwise "plain-jane" map, and a slick map? I'll bet your map artist is thrilled to hear this.

Now, if you aske me, the map on the right looks clean, almost photographic with the terrian icons easy to see and understand. While the map on the left looks cluttered and obscured by the hex-grid, and the terrain icons difficult and in some cases almost impossible to see.

Often, it is a collection of little things that leads to the failure of an idea or product. I doubt this single issue would prevent me from buying future games or additions, but this type of thing coupled with the flip responses from the developers that we've seen towards those consumers who have taken the time to provide well-meaning feedback is very disappointing.

I apologize for the tenor end length of this post., but I felt compelled to respond to several of the statements mad in this thread.

Now, I'll go over to one of the other threads and try to post something that everyone will like.

[;)]

[benpark]

I have to say I agree with liking the one on the right FAR better.

[Pirke]

Well said Magua.

I'm afraid I first had to look onto the terrain chart before I noticed there was a wall/hedge somewhere on the boards.

I'm planning to show this game at a convention in the Netherlands in the future with the idea of getting people interested in this game. Hopefully after having had some experience with the game system via VASSAL and seeing for my self how simple the system plays.

I'm sure the first responses will on the hex grid because 'they are not used to it'. I hope this will not prevent them from exploring the game any further.

But then again, like Magua, I don't think it will prevent me from buying other WWII modules in the series if the system plays as everyone here is telling me. Besides I plan to play mostly via VASSAL which, I hope, will have 'haloless' board versions in case I don't get used to it.

Pirke.

[alienblica]

I just received my copy of lock and load. It is the first board game I have bought (new) in some time. I am very impressed with the game and am looking forward to playing ASAP. Unfortunately, the game box and maps were damaged (bent during shipment). While it is playable, for the money I paid, I am going to get a new game sent.

Back to the graphics, I have to agree with the poster who said re: the statement that we’ll get used to the “halo hexsides”, isn’t a great response. When I looked at the map I found the halo almost completely covers up hedges and fences on the map. What is the reason for the thickness? How does it add to game play. Maybe the designers are correct that we’ll forget it once we play the game enough, but it seems to have been an unnecessary feature to add or not change. Secondly, why couldn’t the maps be reversible. It would be a great use of the materials and the map and increase playability and possibilities for new scenarios.

Now I am going to play the game before I have to return it!

[Ichibrothers]

ORIGINAL: Magua

And it quite frankly blows me away that at least two members of the development team have admitted they didn't like it either, but "got used to it." In fact, it baffles me that so many involved in this project see so much wrong with this thing, and still defend it. This has the distinct sound of a pet idea ordered by the boss, and everyone else is afraid to call him on it.

I don't recall saying that there was anything " wrong" with the grid highlight...just I didn't like it at first...and now I like it very much. Just because you may not like it does not make it "wrong".

As for not "calling" Mark on it....that is an assumption on your part. We all have put our two cents in on every aspect of the game, but in the end, it is Mark's name on the box not ours.

I'm sorry you don't like it. If my telling you..."you will get used to it"....is considered flip, then you may want to read my post again. I did not tell you "to get used to it". I simply stated that you will get used to it after playing for awhile...maybe even come to like it.

But, you have your opinion and I have mine. Hopefully you will enjoy the game as much as I have in spite of your concerns over the graphics.


Bill

[WO1GKW]

I think the maps are fine and I didn't notice the halo at all. Maybe it is because I've been playing Forgotten Heroes. I think it gives the map more of a 3D feel. Now I'm not as fond of the skills cards - they were of better quality in FH. But that is no big deal either - It is a great game. I'm considering the purchase of a second copy and I don't know why...

[Larac]

Well I just got mine in,

I really HATE the maps.

For the price they were put on heavy stock, but printed only on one side.

The Best fix would have been to put the HALO Hexes on one side and the other to be useable by thoses like me that like to know what is in the hex, not just where the hex is.

When I show the game those maps will cause people to question the whloe game, this has happened twice out of 3 folks I have shown.

PLease allow us to some how prove we own the game and get the file so we can fix these things, or allow folks who are scanning and fixing them to post to the rest of us.

My first look says folks were rushed or did not think ahead.

Making the Hero cards in a size that will not fit sleeves, and of very light stock, was such a reason for my view.

The maps are another, it is really hard for me to know what is in a hex, I can not miss where the hex is but the art work is really hard for me to see.
I understand some folks like them but I feel a bit taken back to the "get used to it" answer, there are other options.

It looks like a good system please do not hamstring it by making it harder on us the players in getting more to join us.


Lee
New Player

[Dirtdog20]

As much as I would like to buy the game at this time my finaces wont allow it.

I would like to offer a solution to you that might help with the hero cards though. I use it for classroom games all the time and havent had to replace any games that I have done this too.

Go to an office supply store or office supply section of a Wal-Mart type store. Buy a package of "Laminating Sheets" and use these to seal the Hero cards. They are easy to use and last forever. Just make sure that you have a sharp pair of scissors or a straight blade to cut the sheets. Also make sure you leave an edge around the cards, 1/8th inch should be enough. Also make sure of your placement because once you set the second sheet down it will not come back up.

Do not use clear shelving paper, this will discolor over time and become very foggy.

The sheets are relatively cheap considering how long they will extend the life of the componets of the game you use them on.

[crabe tambour]

I really HATE the maps.

Come on gentlemen. I really think you make a big affair of nothing. "Hate" these maps? They are the most beautiful I have seen for a game at this scale. Show me one better, please

White outlines : i like them.
First, i didn't particulary notice them when i played "Forgotten Heroes". I didn't care at all.
Second, if I HAVE TO think about the grids ( ) i think they add a nice 3D feeling : You have the terrain and you have the grid, very separated, like if you add a grid on a photo on a headquarter table if you see what i mean (my english...). To me, it adds to the terrain realism effect.
Third : it is now a very recognizable sign of the LnL products. And when i see it, i think "yes!"

The Best fix would have been to put the HALO Hexes on one side and the other to be useable by thoses like me that like to know what is in the hex, not just where the hex is.

I don't want to be rude, but, if you know what is the best, why don't you start your own boardgame compagny. I will be glad to buy the "best" products you seem be able to make.
For now, my wallet would be a bit stressed to have to pay the game at a higher price, just to have maps with and without white outlines...

it is really hard for me to know what is in a hex, I can not miss where the hex is but the art work is really hard for me to see.

Come on Lee... I played LnL a lot. I never had this problem, neither my partners. I wonder if you and the other guys are not focalizing on an inexistant detail. A game is first done to play, not to talk about it. As they say : "LnL, less guff, more game". I think the "used to" argument is just right here.
Could you give us a valid example of your problem? on the "Left/right" maps precedently posted by Bull man, i can't see how the white halo could do that it's "hard to know what is in a hex".

One again : i never had a problem with these grids, neither other players I know. I like them. And i never had the feeling that i had to say on the net "hey guys, I like these grids, well done" (come on...). So I think your opinion is not representative at all.

(Mark and team : to me, the real problem with BoH is not the presence or not of a halo. No. The real problem is the white you choose. I would have barely prefer another sort of white. )[:'(]

[Airborne82nd]

I've yet to buy this game. I'm close, though-lol. I do prefer the map on the right from Bull Man. I think it's difficult to tell there is a wall there--just my opinion.

On another note; has anyone played Critical Hits Advanced Tobruk?? I got my copy out today and was messing around a bit. It appears that Tobruk is more complex than this game--that's not bad, I'm actually looking for a game "easier" to play. How do these 2 game systems compare?? I'll most likely only play solo so that is also a factor in my buying decision.
thanks.