Explanation of Fire Control & Range Finders

James P · Post by **James P** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 6:49 pm

Following a recent PBEM game, I’d thought I’d write here to get some advice from the experts! I was playing US vs Germany. To compensate for the lack of a decently armed American tank (early ’44 so no M36) I brought Sherman’s Flames for close up work, and covering 90mm AA guns to handle the big stuff.

Now I know the AT role wasn’t the primary purpose of the 90mm, but with a fire control and range finder value of 6, I expected some accurate covering fire. Throughout the game my plan fell apart due to the inaccuracy of the 90mm’s.

All were placed on high ground to increase visibility and battlefield domination, yet even when unsuppressed, with no smoke / obstructions, and clear targets for more than one turn in sight, my shots usually had a hit percentage along the lines of 2%, 4%, 6% 8%. I also was under the impression that if you fired at a target one turn, and retuned to it the next is would remain acquired and give you a bonus, yet I seemed to start at 2% again.

Can anyone give a quick explanation of the effect of FC and Range finding in the game, and tips on nations most accurate units – I don’t think I’ll be bothering with the 90mm again!

Thanks in advance,

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:04 pm

The manual contains a detailed explanation of the unit values in the section on the editor.

It is the "manual.pdf" file

Crew experience can limit the technical capabilities of the weapons.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:43 am

James P: Probably one thing you're going through is target reacquisition. Of course, early on, your accuracy will be an issue with somewhat inexperienced crews, but onto target reacquisition.

Let's say your opponent has a juicy King Tiger which you've targeted and missed on all attempts during your player turn. During the enemy player turn, it's very likely that gun will retarget, despite the fact that you may had not fired it then. So when you get back to your turn, it may still show the KTIger, but it may had been only the last unit targeted during opfire, which I don't know even counts towards locking if it didn't fire. So, the best you can do with it is to put it's range down very minimally during the enemy turn, and then you will find it firing from the same place it left off at during you last turn.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:53 am

Watch closely during the enemy movement phase, as you are doing Op fire. Let's say your 90mm has acquired AVF B1 last turn. Do you get asked to op fire the 90mm at another AFV, say B2? But you declined, to preserve your acquired ROF & enhanced accuracy on B1, didn't you? Sorry, it's too late. Just in the asking, the AI has "stolen" your 90mm focus on B1 and placed it on B2 - at the "beginner's rate", of course! At your next turn, you fire at B1 again; but the % to hit has dropped back to the starting 2%.

Is this what has happened?

Unfortunately, you can't stop the enemy from firing at you and distracting you. Just like in real life.

Tommy

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:25 am

"Probably one thing you're going through is target reacquisition. Of course, early on, your accuracy will be an issue with somewhat inexperienced crews, but onto target reacquisition. "

"Crew experience can limit the technical capabilities of the weapons. "

This is not the case: in 1944, ver 7.0, we find these values (experience/morale/leadership):

USA: 70/70/70
GB: 70/70/65
GER: 65/70/65
SOV: 70/70/60

As you can see, nothing new under the sun: US crews were the best the world could offer... find another reason, please.

Don Doom · Post by **Don Doom** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 3:30 am

Originally posted by Mikimoto:
"Probably one thing you're going through is target reacquisition. Of course, early on, your accuracy will be an issue with somewhat inexperienced crews, but onto target reacquisition. "

"Crew experience can limit the technical capabilities of the weapons. "

This is not the case: in 1944, ver 7.0, we find these values (experience/morale/leadership):

USA: 70/70/70
GB: 70/70/65
GER: 65/70/65
SOV: 70/70/60

As you can see, nothing new under the sun: US crews were the best the world could offer... find another reason, please.

Ahh, not allways do you start at the above values sir. His crews could be lower. I have seen them as low as 64 in 1945. I doubt anyone just getting off the boat will be up at 70 anything. AA crews would be pretty low compared to an AT crew or a Tank crew.
Let loose the dogs of war. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

john g · Post by **john g** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 3:31 am

Originally posted by James P:

Now I know the AT role wasn’t the primary purpose of the 90mm, but with a fire control and range finder value of 6, I expected some accurate covering fire. Throughout the game my plan fell apart due to the inaccuracy of the 90mm’s.

I just ran a sim of 90mm AA vs Panther G's. The AA guns hit the panthers just fine, they just didn't penetrate worth squat. I watched front hull hit after front hull hit bounce. The only tanks killed were 1 side hull hit and 6 side turret hits. Nothing got thru the front. If instead you had invested in some British 17pdrs you would have punched right thru. That 90mm AA is just not a German 88, even if you think it should be.
thanks, John.

Svennemir · Post by **Svennemir** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 5:36 am

Surprising stuff!!

I seem to have experienced the same problem with AA guns showing inaccuracy.

I have, however, conducted a small test showing rather interesting results.

I used a "clean" map from the editor with no obstacles. I placed two types of guns a line pointing towards a number of GE Stugs of some kind (just as target). The guns were:

SO 57mm AT gun: Accuracy 13, FC 3, RangeFinder 4.

SO 85mm AA gun: Accuracy 15, FC 5, RangeFinder 5.

It would be expected that the AA guns should be pretty much better at hitting, using crews with same experience.

A number of Stug's were placed at range~10 from the guns. Both types of guns showed ~80% hit chance, varying a bit with experience, and both types could effectively hit the Stugs.

Then I tried targeting Stugs 15-20 hexes away. That was interesting: the AT guns showed about 50% hit chance and would hit regularly.

The AA guns, however, showed only 2-3%(!) hit chance! What is more confusing, they actually seemed to hit! An incredible 3 of 4 shots with the "3%" chance, were hits!! Of course I should try some more to create reliable statistics, but I have noticed AA guns behaving "strangely" before.

Svennemir · Post by **Svennemir** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 5:43 am

Oh yes... they continued to hit as one would expect from FC=5 guns... better than the 57mm guns, especially at greater ranges.

BAR · Post by **BAR** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 5:48 am

I tried the tactic of using US 90 mm AA guns as well; set them up perfectly and decimated the initial wave of enemy armor, but AA crews only carried 10 - 15 rds AP per gun. AT crews have 40+ AP. The 90 mm AA HP is useless agains AFV's, but can then target halftracks and other light armor. That may account for all your hits w/no pens.

James P · Post by **James P** » Wed Dec 19, 2001 8:02 pm

Thanks for all the replies guys. I think the OP fire issue could have been the cause for continually dropping back to a 2% hit chance.

Seems the jury is out on the effectiveness of AA guns in the AT role, but I know the pre July '44 Americans are in need of some firepower to make up for those little 75's in the Sherman. Just gotta find the right weapon, cause in my experience it isn’t the 90mm AA <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 7:58 pm

In the encyclopeda there is an accuracy range for each gun that is the range at which there is a 50% chance of a hit, add (not a simple addition of numbers) to this the fire control and the range finder and the experience of the unit and you start to get the real chance of a hit.