P-47 CHS changes

[worr]

Ok, I'll post my work sheets here. See other thread about overview.

This first page will give you a side by side comparison with the stock scenario and CHS in parenthesis. Foot notes will explain changes.

Ranges are posted in game hexes to simplify things. But range is changed by changing endurace which is minutes in the air. You have to divide by sixty to get hours in the air and then multiply by the cruise speed to get total miles. Extended range is 1/3 of that number and represents an aircraft with decreased bomb or I believe in the case of fighters no bomb load. Normal is 1/4 that number.

The squadron work sheet is just CHS sine CHS breaks down the fighter groups into fighter squadrons. H0wever, I did banner the parent fighter group over the squadrons. There are only a couple corrections here.

Overall, the biggest change in the game will be longer wait for all the P-47s, especially the P-47D-25 bubble top, an early P-47D razor back with less bomb laod and a later P-47D bubble top with greater range and production. Climb rate was also increased for the middle thunderbolt, but will have little impact in the game. P-47N will have its true legs but a later date as well.

Worr, out

[worr]

P-47C %

Max Spd: 412 (433) Maneuver: 34 (35) Max Load: 1500 (1000) *

Cruise Spd: 250 Durability: 35 (38) GV: 24

Climb Rate: 2240 (2640) Endurance: 285 - 4.75 ((270 – 4.5)

Max Altitude: 42000 Armour: 1

Upgrade: 47D Range: 1187.5 (1125) 18/6/4 hexes %

Date: 3/43 % Rate: 20



P-47D %%

Max Spd: 428 Maneuver: 36 Max Load: 2000

Cruise Spd: 250 Durability: 36 (38) GV: 24

Climb Rate: 2780 (2640) Endurance: 285 - 4.75 (290 – 4.83) %%

Max Altitude: 42000 Armour: 1

Upgrade: (47C) Range: 1208 (20/6/5) 1080/360/270 * *

Date: 9/43 %% Rate: 90 (85) %%



(P-47N)

Max Spd: 459 Maneuver: 37 Max Load: 2000

Cruise Spd: 275 Durability: 38 GV: 24

Climb Rate: 2700 Endurance: 340 – 5.66 ***

Max Altitude: 42000 Armour: 1

Upgrade: 47N Range: 1558.3 25/8/6 or 1500/500/375

Date: 10/44 + Rate: 45

[worr]

% The first P-47s in theater were the P-47D-2-REs of the 348th FG. Production date 5/43; Range 1250, or endurance 300, which will change its ferry range from 18 to 20 hexes, normal remains 6 and combat up one to 5 hexes. Production will be increased slightly since this is a later aircraft and will remain in service longer than the previous 47C.

* Bomb load should be 500. Yes, the 47D-5 was retrofitted with hard points for 1500, but this wasn’t until 1/44

%% This will be a P-47D-25 bubbletop version which was a mature Thunderbolt with longer range, and better climb rate. Range is now 1800 miles (endurance 432) or 30/10/7 hexes; climb rate 3120; Production rate will be increased to 110 as by mid 1944 production is booming. It arrives 4/44.

** 47D-25 had increased internal fuel, also the D-20 universal wing allowed more external fuel to be carried. Combat range with 370 gallons internal; 300 external was 670 or 11 hexes in game terms. This included no bombs but 5 Min fuel for war up and take off; climb to 25KK and war emergency power for 15 minutes…so very generous. Yet our change will be 30/10/7 just shy of that. Endurance is 432.

*** 47N had a reported range of 2300 miles with 996 gallons fuel with a combat radius (as described above) up to 1,000 miles or 16 hexes. Endurance is increased to 500 giving you 38/12/9 for hexes instead of 25/8/6

+ P-47N production was this early, but not in full swing, nor were deliveries being taken in the PTO until later. 12/44 instead.

[worr]

P-47 Squadrons

Squadron Plane Arrival Origin Assignment Rdy/Dam/Max

348th FG (activated 9/30/42 US; assigned 5th AF SWPAC; Col Neel E Kearby CMOH;

460th FS 47C 4/17/43 US SWPAC 12/4/24 *

340th FS 47C 5/9/43 US SWPAC 12/4/24

341st FS 47C 5/9/43 US SWPAC 12/4/24

342nd 47C 5/9/43 US SWPAC 12/4/24

58th FG (Fall 1943 protecting East Coast; moved to SWPAC Oct-Dec 43; 5th AF)

69th FS 47C 10/22/43 US SOPAC 12/4/24

310th FS 47C 10/22/43 US SWPAC 12/4/24

311th FS 47C 10/22/43 US SWPAC 12/4/24

33rd FG (Moved to India 2/44 from MTO…included 58th and 59th FS)

60th FS 47C 12/31/43 US SEASIA 12/0/24 +

81st FG (2/44 moved to India for training 5/44 moved to china combat operations)

91st FS 47C 2/15/44 Kara China 12/4/24

92nd FS 47C 2/15/44 Kara China 12/4/24

93rd FS 47C 2/15/44 Kara China 12/4/24

508th FG

466th FS 47D 12/18/44 US CENPAC 122/0/24

467th FS 47D 12/18/44 US CENPAC 122/0/24

468th FS 47D 12/18/44 US SEASIA 12/6/24 **


1st Air Commando (3/44 in India for training; support for Wingate raiders)
5th Commando 47D 9/1/44 Kara SEASIA 7/3/24

6th Commando 47D 9/30/44 Kara SEASIA 12/0/24

413th FG

1st FS 47D 4/7/45 US CENPAC 12/0/24 +

507th FG

463rd FS 47D 4/30/45 US CENPAC 12/0/24

462nd FS 47D 4/30/45 US CENPAC 12/0/24

465th FS 47D 4/30/45 US CENPAC 12/0/24

35th FG (Most of it began at Clark Field 11/41 minus 70th FS….finally activated SWPAC 12/43; 39th & 40th FS already in theater)

414th FG

413rd FS 47N 6/15/45 Seattle CENPAC 12/0/24

437th FS 47N 6/5/45 US CENPAC 12/0/24

506th FG

456th FS 47N 6/5/45 US CENPAC 12/0/24 +


* Fighter groups didn’t receive their fourth squadrons until later in the war. This unit was first involved in Leyte Gulf 1/44. Push back to 11/15/44.. This will mean waiting another month for first P-47 squadron in game.

** I’m guessing a typo. Change back to CENPAC with rest of FG.

+ There are plenty of missing fighter squadrons here, especially british thunderbolt I and II squadrons. Two squadrons missing from the 33rd FG, 413th FG and 506th FG; also some other 4th squadrons that were added later to FGs in the PTO. An interesting one is the 201st Mexican Fighter Squadron (5/45) that flew with the 58th FG. Mexico did fight with the allies in the PTO. But no changes made or suggested.

+ 413th FG also 21st FS. 34th FS

+ 33rd Fighter Group: 58th Fighter Squadron, May - Sep 1944, P-47. 59th Fighter Squadron, Jun - Sep 1944, P-47. 60th Fighter Squadron, Mar - Sep 1944, P-47. China Command 14th AF.

+ 506th 458th FS; 462nd FS first mission from Iwo Jima 5/45.

[worr]

I also noticed that though the Max Load was 2000 yet it was only given two 500lb bombs for weapons. I'm guessing this was simply an ommission.

Early P-47D-5 razor back gets one 500lb; later 47D-25 and 47N gets 2 1,000lb bombs.

[worr]

I should have the P-38 done after this weekend. I just want to cross check. But the above is good to go.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: worr

I should have the P-38 done after this weekend. I just want to cross check. But the above is good to go.

Thanks worr.

[worr]

Correction above...first P-47D was the -2 not the -5.

I found a photograph of one from Oct 1943 #42-8092 in a squadron/signal publication for modlers.

Also a pic of the 348th FG commanders aircraft firery ginger also a D-2



Worr, out

[el cid again]

I also noticed that though the Max Load was 2000 yet it was only given two 500lb bombs for weapons. I'm guessing this was simply an ommission.

Nope. From examining a lot of planes (albiet Japanese planes) I have concluded that WITP/CHS define the NORMAL bomb load. The MAXIMUM bomb load weight is ALSO defined. But you can only carry that to a shorter range - and the engine wants to know what you NORMALLY carry to what I call "normal load range." ["Ferry Range" is the maximum distance you can go - WITHOUT weapons. "Normal Load Range" is the distance you can go with NORMAL weapons. "Maximum Load Range" is the distance you can go with MAXIMUM load of weapons. So Maximum Load Range is always less than Normal Load Range which is always less than Ferry Range (if you are a bomber - or plane with similar weapons).

[worr]

How does that match up with escourt fighters who would carry fuel instead of bombs. Seems odd to give them the same combat range with drop tanks and without bombs and you would with bombs and without tanks.

There are only drop tanks on the photo birds that I've seen.

BTW...none of this is in the manual. I wish I knew more.

Worr, out

[m10bob]

Worr, if you look very carefully at those pics of the early P 47's with the P 38 fuel tanks, you will notice the tanks are actually outboard of the wing bomb racks.
I don't know if the wings had the lift capacity of both, but being the "Jug", I would imagine they did?
Too bad those pics were not closer..

[worr]

Yea, too hard to see.

Jugs went through several evolutions of drop tanks.

Worr, out

[Jo van der Pluym]

about changes for planes. What about rockets for fighter-bombers?

[worr]

I'm all for it too.

But I cannot say I understand how armaments work in the game. As you know you had to trade off drop tanks for bombs, etc. Or GP vs AP. Which one should be assigned in the data base? How does the game choose armament?

I honestly don't know...so I didn't play with it.

Worr, out

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: worr

% The first P-47s in theater were the P-47D-2-REs of the 348th FG. Production date 5/43; Range 1250, or endurance 300, which will change its ferry range from 18 to 20 hexes, normal remains 6 and combat up one to 5 hexes. Production will be increased slightly since this is a later aircraft and will remain in service longer than the previous 47C.

What production rate do you suggest for the P-47C? The current CHS rate is 20, as you note in your previous list of settings for the three aircraft variants.

Andrew

[worr]

25

[Hard Sarge]

Worr, if you look very carefully at those pics of the early P 47's with the P 38 fuel tanks, you will notice the tanks are actually outboard of the wing bomb racks.
I don't know if the wings had the lift capacity of both, but being the "Jug", I would imagine they did?
Too bad those pics were not closer..

might be bad pic or angle

those were wet/dry attachment points, so it was a either or could be used from it

earlier models only had dry attachments points

I beleive that is the Univsal (spelling sorry) wing, believe it was the RE-20 that it started and allowed drop tanks to be carried

HARD_Sarge

[worr]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
I beleive that is the Univsal (spelling sorry) wing, believe it was the RE-20 that it started and allowed drop tanks to be carried

That is correct.

But there were many experiements....more than the books contain. Pictures may paint "a thousand words," but they still don't tell the whole story.

Worr, out

[worr]

N.B.

Thunderbolt II numbers should be changed to the same as those for the P-47D-25

[worr]

When are you looking to do the next update, Andrew?