Game Balance

[mcaryf]

Is it intended that the game is balanced between Axis and Allies (in 1.04) or is it expected that the Allies should always win as irl?

I have been experimenting by letting the AI play itself with the game ending in Fall 1946 - I have yet to see anything but a declared Allied victory - is this what should be expected?

My guess is that the AI would be most effective playing sides in the following order Soviets, Chinese, Germany/Italy, Japanese, Wally. Thus marginally the AI might be more effective as the Axis - so if they always lose playing their better side, does this mean the set up is in favour of the Allies?

Mike

[Lebatron]

In short, the Allies are expected to win the war in the end.

In a simple game like A&A thats not a given. The Axis have a 50/50 shot at winning it all. Once their IPC(production money) levels are even it can go many turns and either way.

WAW is more like the monster board games, in the respect that the allies will always crush the Axis given enough time. In these monster games the Axis player is judged on how he performed. Did he hold out longer than the Axis did irl or make greater gains?Things like that determine the Axis players victory level. Of coarse there is always the chance the Axis can make an early knock out blow and gain a decisive victory, and this game models that just like the monster board games do. In this case the game is over because the Allies sue for peace. But if that doesn't happen then its a race to hold out longer than historical to win the game as Axis.

One of the things I like about this game is that it plays a year longer than a monster board game like Third Reich. IIRC Third Reich ended at the end of 1945. At that point the area the Axis still held is added up and a victory level is determined. What WAW does better than TR is that it assumes you are in charge and not the F*ck ups Hitler and Goering. Basically what I'm saying is that you do not make the huge errors Hilter and Goering made and therefore Germany would have lasted longer, perhaps even won the war. If these two men as well as others did not make the huge mistakes they did, I certainly would believe the war in Europe would have went on much longer. That is of coase if conventional warfare was the only way for the allies to win. The A-bomb would have ended things regardless in fall45 or spring 46. But in this game the A-bomb is optional so allowing for a different what if the game can certainly drag out longer than the other monster games allow. This could have been the same reasoning Gary Grigsby used in his decision to extend the game beyond what has been traditional.

[Lebatron]

Oh regarding the AI. Its a bad idea to judge game balance watching the AI play. It does a poor job as Germany. It doesn't defend France well and always pulls everything back out of Russia once the Allies land. It does so even if the Russains are nearly done for allowing them the chance to rebuild. So yes it allways ends up being an Allied decisive victory because of that.

[JanSorensen]

I just had the AI play itself 4 times - each time the Axis won a marginal victory. (thrice using v1.070 and once using 1.040).

Are you by chance letting the AI play with simple rather than advanced supply?

I concur with Lebatron that the AI does not play well enough to base actual balance around it - though I disagree that its particularly weak as German. Infact, I find it to be at its weakest using the WA - but I guess its just overall not comperable to anything but the novice player.

[Lebatron]

Well I agree with Jan that the WA AI is very bad. It does some stupid things, but it always manages to successfully pull off D-day in 1943, a full year before historical. So no matter how stupid it is in other areas it does the most important thing right. This early D-day has the greatest impact on the game and makes up for all the dumb ass things it did earlier. Its sucessfull in D-day, not through great play mind you, but by total incompetance of the German AI. This is why I call the German AI bad. It would be so easy for the German AI to hold this landing off for awhile if it would just place some infantry an art and some fighters there. Instead it sticks only militia in France and holds the fighters back in places like East Germany. Turn after turn these militia are just destroyed by British bombers and the German AI reponds by sending in more militia to replace them. Its wastefull. If 2by3 can do something about this many who like to play vs the German AI would enjoy the game more.

Another thing they should fix is the problem with Yugo. When I first started to play the game, Germany used to wait till turn 2 to attack Yugo. Now after "AI improvements" it attacks every time on turn one and fails. The German AI wastes 3 to 4 militia and about 10 supply for nothing. They need to program the German AI to wait till turn two when it will have a few inf and art to add to the fight.
What I have resorted to when wanting to watch the AI play itself is take over Germany first turn to prevent this. Then after I take care of Yugo for it I then turn controll back to the AI. You'd be surprized at how much it helps out the German AI to get this right for it.

[mcaryf]

I agree that starting a scenario after the fall of France gives a lot of possibility to help the Axis AI. For example I position some proper infantry alongside Yugoslavia so the AI will use that.

Jan, I am surprised that you have seen the Axis AI win as I have set it to play itself (with advanced supply) over a dozen times and it has never won. As Jesse says even if it is doing well versus the SU it will pull its forces back if the Wallies land. I have even seen the Axis in Grozny with no SU defenders in the Caucases and it still does not attack.

The way I have enable the Axis AI to win consistently in my mod is by partially by giving the Wally units more capability (movement 2 infantry) but making them cost more. This together with reduced lethality air results in the Axis doing consistently better. This is the intro in my readme for the mod:

AI’s Vengeance

This modification should only be played as the Western Allies with all other roles being conducted by the AI, it is based on changes made to version 1.04 although some features from 1.07 (e.g. stronger Spain) are also included.

It has been deliberately set up to give the Axis AI some important advantages that should make it a good opponent for an experienced human player without giving its units absurdly strong capabilities. It should be a challenge even when played on normal. Just as an example the modification starts after the fall of France in the summer of 1940, this enables the British player to be faced with the real historic dilemma of what to do about the Vichy Fleets. In this scenario they will join the Axis if any Vichy territory is attacked! However, the key benefit to the Axis AI is to reduce the general lethality of air attacks. This makes it that much harder for the Western Allies to fight their way back into those Axis conquests which require sea landings.

In constructing this modification some new features have also been given to the Western Allies, such as motorized infantry and larger (2 air group) CV’s, so that the playing experience should have some new elements as well as being more of a challenge.

I would like to have one or two experienced people look at this mod for me before I make it generally available as I would not want to inflict it on the unwary if it has anything seriously wrong. It is about 140kb in compressed form and requires you to change half a dozen standard files (e.g. icons) as well as creating new scenario files. If you are interested PM me your e-mail and I will send it to you.

I am off on a fortnight's vacation from next Sunday so will not be able to respond during that period.

Mike

[JanSorensen]

As I said - the Axis won 3 times running in v1.070 and once in the v1.040. After that I didnt bother doing more runs. It appeared to me that the Allied AI is simply horrible at the Pacific war - in none of the game did it even surround Japan much less invade. Thats also the reason I consider the WA AI even worse than the German one. Its not as obvious - but the effect is far greater. Atleast the German AI knows to defend Germany while the WA AI seems not to know how to handle Japan very well.

[mcaryf]

Hi Jan

I can only assume you are using a different version of the game - obviously 1.07 has got rid of the US production multiplier so that is probably an answer there. Do you have any other mods included in your 1.04? I just ran the AI v itself again after reading your post. The Wallies were in Western Europe in 1943, Germany fell in Spring 1946 and Japan in Fall 1946 . Axis score 255 Allies 6518 which is fairly typical of what I have seen every time I have tried it. Admittedly there are some minor AI tweaks in my mod that I have left in but if anything that should make the Axis play better.

Regards

Mike

[JanSorensen]

The v1.040 I ran one session on is plain out of the box GGWaW with no modifications. Maybe I will let it run a few more times later if I am not doing anything else.