Unusual Jap opening

[Nick E]

I've started a PBEM game as Allies in which my opponent has not invaded anywhere at all in Luzon but instead hit Kavieng, Admiralty Is., Menado, Miri, Jesselton, Jolo, Cagayan, and several bases in N. New Guinea including Lae. KB hit Manila the first day in a port attack but then moved west. Wake was ignored. Malaya had the usual landings at Khota Baru and Songkhia. We've played only two days so far. It looks like he's trying to bypass Luzon and let it wither on the vine. I suppose it would be much easier to take in mid-1942 if it is totally out of supplies, meanwhile he has the use of the divisions that would have been tied up in Luzon. I'm tempted to keep my heavy bombers there and maybe even send some more but I know that doing so will be an enormous drain on my supplies. Has anyone ever seen this kind of opening in a PBEM game?

[Gen.Hoepner]

I've tried something similar in the match vs MC ( see AAR). I landed at Luzon only with a 1 Bde, 1 Div and 3 SNLF plus tons of base forces. The rest of my divisions moved to conquer Darwin and Northern Oz, Java, Sumatra and Timor ...oh and Malaya.
Luzon was cut out of everything, being sorrounded by dec 25th by Jap level 4 AFs with Nells and Zeros in the, and with a HUGE Sallies Force at Aparri bombing manila every day, so eating up all the supplies...it worked greatly

BY may 42 manila was easily taken

[Nick E]

GH, I'll have a look at your AAR when I get a chance. In the meantime, looks like I at least want to turn replacements on for my AA units and see what I can do to strengthen the defenses of Aparri and the other large base next to it. I already have some troops headed north from the Manila area.

[madflava13]

Before he can move in a ton of LBA, use your heavies to target any ports of his in range... You probably won't sink anything, but you'll damage a lot of his shipping, which slows him down and clogs his limited repair yards. Also, keep fighters over Manila/Clark as long as possible - any kills you can get now will be on his experienced pilots, saving you time down the road. Remember you can still evac planes through China if need be...

If he's going to give you the bases, keep them a thorn in his side!

[madflava13]

Also, don't discount Manila as a place to hold out - the bonus you receive for fighting in the city is substantial!

[tsimmonds]

OTOH, the game I'm in right now (02/02/42), the allied player has divided himself evenly between Manila and Lamon Bay. Now, I have gone into the PI with a stripped down force, 3 1/2 divisions divided between northern Luzon and Naga, and his deployment is making things complicated.

I skimped on the PI force in order to

1) send 6 divisions + to Singapore (which just fell), and
2) send an unspecified force into the southwest pacific, which has already secured Rabaul and PM, and has just landed at Luganville, with further ops in prospect.

Anyway, the Lamon Bay thing has really given me something to think about. Makes it tough to move the force coming up from Naga into Manila.

[esteban]

Lamon Bay? Thats not a great place to threaten Naga from, because you have to march overland through Malaria country to get there.

To each their own I guess.

I think you can bypass Luzon, but unless you can take Naga, Lingayen and that other northern resource point below Aparri, (the one with the difficult name), the Allies will get a pretty substantial amount of supply from the resource centers on Luzon.

[tsimmonds]

It is easy to say it, not so easy to actually march your boys into Manila from Naga with 45,000 in Lamon Bay behind you. Yeah, they'd be slow leaving down the trail, and maybe you can handle Manila before they get between you and Legaspi. Remember though that the whole thing that is going on in the PI in this case begins with light ground forces for IJ.

The supply they get is irrelevant. I never count on starving them out. Just keep bombing the airfields so they can't build forts.

[tsimmonds]

It looks like he's trying to bypass Luzon and let it wither on the vine. I suppose it would be much easier to take in mid-1942 if it is totally out of supplies, meanwhile he has the use of the divisions that would have been tied up in Luzon.

He is probably doing this in order to concentrate maximum force for use someplace else, like in order to do away with Singapore quickly perhaps. After that is out of the way he would be able to re-deploy as needed to take care of "unfinished business". I would not assume that he is going to ignore Luzon until mid-42 though.

[Tom Hunter]

There are a few counter moves

You can build up in Manila so that he will have a lot of trouble taking the place when the time finally comes. See the Mogami Vs. Tom Hunter Lunacy AAR.

You can chase him around the countrside if he does not send enough troops to win. Don't bother trying to destroy the Japanese, but if you can push them back it wrecks their ability to take Luzon, and they will have to wait and send more troops.

Try slipping some blockade runners through, a little supply goes a long way. Send them from the US West coast and manage their approach carefully, watching the route and the weather.

If your opponent is careless and leaves you with bases in the NEI you can fly fighters in and out in late Spring 42. See The Imperialism AAR. The game seems to have stopped but there is some good information there.

If your creative you can significantly increase the cost of bypasssing the islands. Also think about pulling your B17s out right now, and sending them back in a few weeks when his forces have moved on to other objectives.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: madflava13

If he's going to give you the bases, keep them a thorn in his side!

I agree. Many Jap players under estimate the force required to take PI. They assume that they can waltz in after it has run out of supply. [:-]

This could be a problem for him if he lets you get too settled. Run supplies to PI now in single cargo ships, but send many. Send supplies to Wake to prepare it for supplying PI when the straights around Borneo are closed to you.

Don't just build up your AA units, build up all your PI infantry units. YOu have infantry and guns to spare as the US. Just doing that will make you 25% stronger.

I would send your air units out of harms way until you can actually use them for something. Most of your fighters there are worthless until you can upgrade, but if he didn't clober your P-40s at Clark field and at PH and you can avoid takening P-40 losses you could begin upgrading your other units almost immediately. Go back when you have the air power to fight him at least for a while. P-40s massed are a big headache for the Japs.

[6971grunt]

I haven't seen this opening before, but it appears to be an effort to concentrate on Southeast Asia/India first and leave the US to ponder it's offensive possibilities.

I might suggest since he has left Pearl alone to think of moving on Marcus Island to establish an airbase to threaten the mainland and establish an airscreen with Wake Island. It may also may make the Jap a little nervous about air raids on the mainland. I have used this strategy before and the Jap AI was very slow to respond.

If you want to get real crazy/aggressive, take a look at Iwo Jima early. This cuts into his convoy/supply lines. Iwo is lightly defended and can be turned into a 6 airbase .

Since the Jap seems content to let the US think about its options - I suggest you take advantage by making a center thrust. Your have the battleships and carriers to protect the landings. He may be forced to move his KB toward you instead of the weak UK naval forces.

I also suggest that you use your "untouched" forces in the Phillippines to make the Jap's life "a living hell". Your air and naval forces can make the Straits of Formosa area a very difficult gauntlet to run. I would not suggest sending any more bombers to the area - use those for your center thrust.

Anyway, some thoughts. [;)]

[jrlans]

ORIGINAL: grunt6971

I haven't seen this opening before, but it appears to be an effort to concentrate on Southeast Asia/India first and leave the US to ponder it's offensive possibilities.

I might suggest since he has left Pearl alone to think of moving on Marcus Island to establish an airbase to threaten the mainland and establish an airscreen with Wake Island. It may also may make the Jap a little nervous about air raids on the mainland. I have used this strategy before and the Jap AI was very slow to respond.

If you want to get real crazy/aggressive, take a look at Iwo Jima early. This cuts into his convoy/supply lines. Iwo is lightly defended and can be turned into a 6 airbase .

Since the Jap seems content to let the US think about its options - I suggest you take advantage by making a center thrust. Your have the battleships and carriers to protect the landings. He may be forced to move his KB toward you instead of the weak UK naval forces.

I also suggest that you use your "untouched" forces in the Phillippines to make the Jap's life "a living hell". Your air and naval forces can make the Straits of Formosa area a very difficult gauntlet to run. I would not suggest sending any more bombers to the area - use those for your center thrust.

Anyway, some thoughts. [;)]

Sorry grunt but i would recomend against this if you get to aggresive to early you just invite defeat. If you think OZ or India are in danger then send some US forces that way via PP. Also you can drop off your carrier aircraft at any base to lay a trap and not endanger your carriers (just dont let that base fall or you will be very short on carrier trained planes)

Also aviod taking your carriers out in the early months of the war unless KB is half a a world away literaly! The last thing you want is to lose the ablitly to project force with your carriers.

As for his opening before you can do anything with the PI you need to get supply in and thats the tough part. I would try to sneak single ships in also if your playing with allied sub doc on your subs are basicaly worthless till 43. Use them to transport as much supply as you can. You might be able to get as much as 2k a month if you use wake as a staging base for supplies and subs.

[6971grunt]

ORIGINAL: jrlans

Sorry grunt but i would recomend against this if you get to aggresive to early you just invite defeat. If you think OZ or India are in danger then send some US forces that way via PP. Also you can drop off your carrier aircraft at any base to lay a trap and not endanger your carriers (just dont let that base fall or you will be very short on carrier trained planes)

Also aviod taking your carriers out in the early months of the war unless KB is half a a world away literaly! The last thing you want is to lose the ablitly to project force with your carriers.

As for his opening before you can do anything with the PI you need to get supply in and thats the tough part. I would try to sneak single ships in also if your playing with allied sub doc on your subs are basicaly worthless till 43. Use them to transport as much supply as you can. You might be able to get as much as 2k a month if you use wake as a staging base for supplies and subs.

You might be right about Iwo, but it sure presents some interesting discussions. I do, however, believe that a quick move into Marcus Island with a RCT and engineers to support aircraft [and maybe a Marine CD Bn] would make the Jap think about what's going on and even might give him pause.

I agree that US carriers are a rather precious commodity, however, not to use them early in the war in a calculated manner might not be the best use for them. Remember the message Lincoln sent to McCellan befor the battle of Sharpsburg "If you aren't going to use your Army, do you mind if I borrow it for awhile". I feel the same way concerning US naval moves. A more aggressive [not foolish][:-] USN early in the game may throw the IJN off it's strategic line in order to deal with those pesky Americans.

I know in a game that I involved in at the moment, the USN raided Truk and cause great concern [and damage] very early in the game [i.e., 1/42] and it required the time-consuming shifting of forces to deal with the issue [I eventually sunk 2 of 3 of his carriers in 2/42 in the Bismark Sea - but the point was that it cost me valuable momentum in Southeast Asia]. Still I know that those two carriers will return as Essex Carriers in about 18 months - then, Oh joy!].

All I saying is that for the USN to play a timid game at the start may not always be the best thing - depending on what the IJN is doing at the time.

Your thoughts?[&o]

[Yamato hugger]

See posts 19 and 21 of my " YH v IS2m Dark Days " AAR on why you shouldnt defend at Manila.

[jrlans]

Oh i agree that the american carriers can be put to good use, so long as you have a definate fix on KB. Also i tend not to engage my carriers till after they get there extra fighters to bump them up to 36, till then its just too risky for me.

Also do you realy think marcus is tennable? I would imagine that an RCT would just be more ground losses when japan decides that a lvl 4 AF that close isnt very much fun for them. How would you defend it? Marcus for me is a little too far a little to early. I perfer to fight around allied land based air power till i get at least 6 CVs

[6971grunt]

ORIGINAL: jrlans

Oh i agree that the american carriers can be put to good use, so long as you have a definate fix on KB. Also i tend not to engage my carriers till after they get there extra fighters to bump them up to 36, till then its just too risky for me.

Also do you realy think marcus is tennable? I would imagine that an RCT would just be more ground losses when japan decides that a lvl 4 AF that close isnt very much fun for them. How would you defend it? Marcus for me is a little too far a little to early. I perfer to fight around allied land based air power till i get at least 6 CVs

It seems to me that the vast majority of Japanese Army and Naval resources are concentrated in the area of the South China Sea. This leaves very little "boots-on-the-ground" types to effectively resist the initial invasion and it's a long time before they gather the troop strength necessary to conduct counter-invasion [hopefully by that time this base has been built up sufficiently to resist any such counter-invasion]. It would be hoped that their other area "commitments" prevent them from effectively intervening in any meaningful manner. Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.

I guess we are talking in terms of different playing styles - which is just fine[8D]. Your points are well taken and constituted a safer way to conduct the USN, I tend to be more of a risk-taker.[8|]

[tsimmonds]

Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.

Oh, yeah. If there is stuff to kill, IJA will be there. There is always some nasty LCU or other that can be shaken lose from somewhere. Hell, chances are, there's one already saddled up waiting to go.

[Yamato hugger]

Points is points. If the allies are going to serve them up on a platter, I'd take it.

[Sneer]

same to me Yamato
JPN battleline and KB is free of duty in Jan 42 - later I can spare some LCU and kill rest of fisherman