Heavy Cruiser Ideas in "Orange Dawn" Scenario

[FDRLincoln]

Right now my current thinking is that new heavy cruisers in the Orange Dawn No Washington Treaty scenario will be more similar to their Washington Treaty counterparts than you might expect.

The biggest problem with the real-life early Wash Treaty cruisers, in most cases, was thin protection. The British Counties focuses on seakeeping and firepower but had thin armor. The early US heavies focused on range and firepower but had thin armor. My thinking is that the "no Washington treaty" cruisers, being able to avoid an artificial 10,000 ton limit, would be around 12,000-13,000 to start with, similar weapons to their real-life counterparts, but better protection taking up the increased tonnage.

There won't be many new 1920s heavy cruisers in Orange Dawn....the powers concentrate their naval spending on dreadnoughts. But the US and the Japanese start adding a few new heavies to their fleets, if only for purposes of commerce raiding, to complement their existing old ACs. The Brits have a huge and relatively modern CL force that the other powers don't have, so I may limit them to an additional unit or two of the Hawkins-type, or perhaps an enlarged Hawkins with better protection.

Thoughts?

[FDRLincoln]

We begin with a british design for an enhanced version of the Hawkins class cruiser. This ship, which I will call the Drake class, is designed for the traditional armored/heavy cruiser role of trade protection and commerce raiding.

Basically we take the Hawkins hull, and use the extra displacement made available by the fact that there is no Washington Treaty to increase armor and weaponry, though not to battlecruiser standards of course. I suggest an armament of 8-9.2 inch guns, 2 forward twin turrets and 2 rear, as the main battery, plus the standard assortment of smaller weapons per British practive. Armor protection will be superior to the real-life County class, although still below capital ship standards of course.

Given the large number of modern British light cruisers in the early and mid 20s, not many Drakes would be built. Perhaps two? I can see one beginning the Orange Dawn war on station in the Pacific, Signapore or Hong Kong, with a second arriving later.

[Alikchi2]

I like the Drake - how fast is she? And I agree with you on the numbers. The RN is swimming in light cruisers and scouting forces (relative to the USN, at least), which can only be a good thing for them.

The Japanese have a lot of obsolete armoured cruisers but some fairly new and modern light cruisers. Perhaps something similar to the Aoba/Furutaka design, except up-armoured? 8,000-ton scouts?

I think the critical point here will be for the American cruisers. With the exception of the Omahas, the USN has no modern or useful cruisers, heavy or light. And there aren't enough of them to do all the jobs assigned to them. Without the Omahas as scouts, the USN is blind. With the Omahas as fleet scouts, the USN has no real ability to carry on trade warfare. They have to build -something- or the fleet stays unbalanced.

Perhaps a follow-on class similar to the "Columbia" in this thread? It's not a heavy, but it may be relevant.
http://www.wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.p ... 439685a75d

[FDRLincoln]

The Drake would be a 30knot cruiser, like the Counties they replace historically.

For the Japanese, I was thinking of an up-armored Furutaka, exactly. They already have enough CLs but could use a few CA types just like the Brits.

You are right, the US presents the most serious problem. I had two ideas here, a Salt Lake City-type with better armor, or an enlarged Omaha very similar to the Columbia type you pointed to on the web. Which would the US prefer? I can see them going for the Columbia....given the US apparent penchant for mass production and standardization during this time period, as shown by the huge number of destroyers built to the same design. Expanding the Omaha would make a lot of sense.

[Terminus]

It would make sense, from an economic standpoint, to scale up the Omaha. The point of the heavy cruiser back then was commerce raiding, and a larger hull can include bigger fuel bunkers...

[FDRLincoln]

Ok, to summarize current thinking on new Orange Dawn cruisers:

Brits: A couple of Hawkins upgrades with 9.2 inch guns, in addition to current large light cruiser forces.
Japan: Furutaka type with better armor. These ships would make sense arriving as reinforcments 1927/1928.
US: Enlarged Omaha intended for commerce raiding. A few begin at start, more arriving as reinforcements later.
French: ??

[FDRLincoln]

Research reveals that the Japanese Yubari and Furataka designs both pre-date the Washington Treaty. Therefore both will be restored to the Japanese order-of-battle for Orange Dawn.

Yubari will begin the game at the Pescadores.

The two Furatakas will arrive as reinforcements for Japan sometime in 1927, the idea being that their construction was delayed due to the focus on building dreadnoughts. Since the original design pre-dates the Washington Treaty, I don't see any particular reason to change it.

[FDRLincoln]

Completed order of battle modifications:

United States: Congress and President, conjectural 18-inch gun battlecruisers, arrive as reinforcements
United Kingdom: Drake and Blake, conjectural 9.2-inch heavy cruisers, one starting game at Hong Kong, the other arriving as reinforcement. Battleship Marlborough deleted from order of battle, having been sunk at Jutland in this timeline.
Empire of Japan: Real-life light cruiser Yubari, begins game at Pescadores. Battlecruisers Takao and Atago begin game already built. Two additional Kii-class battleships will arrive as reinforcements.

Planned but not finished
United States: Columbia-class light cruisers (expansion of Omaha design)
United Kingdom: various adjustments to arrival dates, slightly stronger starting forces
Empire of Japan: Furataka-class heavy cruisers will arrive as reinforcements.

[Alikchi2]

I like the sound of your changes very much.

When do the Congress and President arrive? After the 18"-armed South Dakotas, I assume?

What date are you planning on having the scenario begin?

[FDRLincoln]

scenario begins at the same time as the 1926-1930 superdreadnought one.

I don't remember the exact dates of arrivial for the two new US BCs, but they were in 1928.

[FDRLincoln]

It is a small thing, but I have renamed the stock scenario's conjectural US carriers Yorktown and Enterprise as Wright and Kitty Hawk. I wanted to reserve the original names for a possible "cheaper battlecruiser" class imposed on the Navy by a cost-concious Congress. I picked Wright and Kitty Hawk as they fit in well with Langley as an "aviation pioneer" naming scheme. I thought about naming one after Glenn Curtiss but he didn't die until 1930.

[Tankerace]

Just an interjection here, but for a cheaper class why not the original Lexington design (What is in the first patch known as the CC1916 class). Lighter armor, 14 inch guns, and fewer of them, they would be more cost effective (though at a cost in battle) to the CC1919s (Lexingtons).

[FDRLincoln]

Interesting idea. I can't wait for the patch to see what goodies you have in store for us.

[FDRLincoln]

Two Furutaka-class cruisers added to the game on Japanese side as reinforcements. These ships were historically designed before the Washington Treaty, so I thought it appropriate to add them.

I am going to wait a bit before making further large adjustments to see what goodies come out in the patch.

[Tankerace]

Actually, since they were desined before, then I'll go ahead and add them to the full game. I always saw the date they were laid down, and passed them over. Forgot they have a pre treaty armament of single 8 inchers.

Still though....what do we call the historical Kako? Aoba perhaps?

[FDRLincoln]

Yeah, I am going with Aoba in my mod. Next name in line.

Note that Yubari was also a pre-Washington design.

[Tankerace]

But Yubari is a complete piece of... antiqeuated equipment. [:D]

Yeah, I'll stuff her in. Kind of feel bad for the USN though, they have good BBs/BCs, and a ton of obsolete but good DDs, and barely anything in the middle.

[FDRLincoln]

Yeah, this is true. When I get Orange Dawn up and running I hope to have some "mid-range" US designs, admittedly conjectural of course, to help fill this gap. But first I have to get the alternate history worked out. And before that I have a big major real-life work project I have to finish by December 20.

[Layer]

Both in Conways and Brown mention is made of the 1918 cruiser design. Extensions of the E class. Design A was the same dimensions but with 4 - 7.5" guns, B was slightly larger with 5 - 7.5" guns. Both were to have the same machinery as the E's. A would be 33knots, B 30knots. They were in response to reports of new German cruisers. However they may be a possible pointer to the direction the RN would be thinking of in scouting terms if no WT. Despite the large no of CL's they had.