Toward an Improvised Civilian Economy

[el cid again]

There are some technical points unclear to me yet, but I propose:

1) To simulate the economic burden of the civil economy in on the map nations as a way to deal with the excessive supply problem and also as a way to put a burden on the resource centers and manufacturing centers to do more than buy bullets.

2) To accept that we cannot really separate the civil and military economy. The manual says the AI will attempt to do "triangle" routing of merchant ships - something Japan didn't do for most of the war but (a) should have and (b) eventually figured out. Similarly, the game resource centers produce things needed by BOTH the civil and military economy, and so do manufacturing centers. And then there is the matter that abstracting this would mean the allies could not sink ships or otherwise mess with the civil economy IF they were abstracted. The two cannot be separated, but not accounting for the civil burden while giving Japan ALL the ships and resources and manufacturing centers is way too liberal, and breaks the validity of the game as a simulation.

3) We should consider reducing the size of resource centers. They appear to be based on theoretical continuous maximum production, and that theory leads to excessive inventories. A first pass guess would say cut in half the resource centers not in the Japanese core area (operating under peacetime Japanese administration: Japan, Korea, Manchukuo and Tiawan).

4) We should reduce the supplies produced by resource centers to the following values: for a place that makes food, gravel and timber, half;
for a place timber and gravel only, one fourth; for a place that produces only one of the three, one tenth. We should do this by adding support to the locations which have resources, as required. This probably also means we need to put IN resources for some places that don't have them (e.g. stock New Caledonia really needs significant resources, but not lots of supply points, and this may now be possible to simulate).

5) We should create a supply requirement for civil cities and other manufacturing centers. This we do by adding support and/or motorized support in proportion to the population (support) and industry (motorized support) present. This probably also means we need to put IN manufacturing for places that don't have it - to generate supplies really generated there. But it will mean that supplies generated by heavy industry now gets eaten by these cities - and in proportion to what they need - not always what they make. That will mean that resources need to be imported for the manufacturing centers to use to make supplies at all - and that sometimes supplies need to be sent places to support the civil economy. Since much industry is in Japan, Korea, Manchuria and Taiwan, they will need to import resources, to make supplies, or the whole system will run out of them. And as supply lines are cut or hurt, the impact will snowball.

[Blackhorse]

El Cid,

My hat's off to you for taking a crack at this (so far) intractable problem.

This is an area where the game falls apart as a simulation, and fails to capture the "feel" of the Pacific War. For both Allies and Japanese there were severe shortages of supplies, sealift, and airlift. But in WitP (like its predecessor, Pacific War) transport and supplies are never in short, er . . . supply.

But I suspect that some of your proposed solutions (#4 -- reducing supplies produced by resource centers) would require coding changes, and are beyond our ability to fix.

[el cid again]

Support assigned to a location defined as a base or airfield (the places that have industry and resources) is ignored by code.

Support assigned to any other unit requires one supply point per support.

Support has anti armor and anti soft values. A new device defined as a copy of support - called civil support - has a value of 0 for anti armor and 1 for anti-soft - and works just the same. It mostly eats supplies. But it has slight combat value (a mob?)

Such a unit can be immobile if it is a coast defense unit. It can have a generic leader called civil administrator - 2990 slot. And it can be hard to kill and will tend to repair if damaged -if one assigns forts and makes it fairly big.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Support assigned to a location defined as a base or airfield (the places that have industry and resources) is ignored by code.

Support assigned to any other unit requires one supply point per support.

Support has anti armor and anti soft values. A new device defined as a copy of support - called civil support - has a value of 0 for anti armor and 1 for anti-soft - and works just the same. It mostly eats supplies. But it has slight combat value (a mob?)

Such a unit can be immobile if it is a coast defense unit. It can have a generic leader called civil administrator - 2990 slot. And it can be hard to kill and will tend to repair if damaged -if one assigns forts and makes it fairly big.

So far, so good.

Using Malaysia as an example (lots of rubber, a valuable resource, but really shouldn't be generating supplies) . . . we could put a "civil support" device on each resource base to "eat away" the excess supplies, and leave only the resources.

What happens when the Japanese capture the rubber plantations? Is the supply-eating device destroyed, or does it convert to become a voracious Japanese omnivore?

[bstarr]

You could have a delayed entry unit specifically for the area in question - add a "fortification" devise to keep it from moving; as long as the base gets captured before the entry date everything works just fine. I tried this several months ago. The main problem I ran into was lack of data on what areas would require how much supply. Also there's a question of using up a slot (or two if it is a port that is apt to get captured) just to create a supply drain.

[el cid again]

What happens when the Japanese capture the rubber plantations? Is the supply-eating device destroyed, or does it convert to become a voracious Japanese omnivore?

My thinking was to make Japanese ones to eat Japanese supplies - and Allied ones to eat Allied supplies - and to center them on major population centers - because making them hard to kill somewhat correctly simulates ugly urban combat situations (see Manila) - and because the critical skilled labor for many operations is dependent on the local urban centers for technical and logistic support. I also want to kill the graphic so the units are not visible to players. A Japanese unit cannot eat Japanese supplies unless they become available - THEN it will eat them! Now in Japan, Korea, Manchukuo, Taiwan and occupied China/Indochina, we just have Japanese ones. When they fall - if they do fall - the centers lose a lot of productivity and as what is left comes back up - it is more efficient - under Allied administration - and we don't worry about the generation of supply.

[el cid again]

Using Malaysia as an example (lots of rubber, a valuable resource, but really shouldn't be generating supplies) . . . we could put a "civil support" device on each resource base to "eat away" the excess supplies, and leave only the resources.

I cannot agree. Malaya is a significant generator of supply in several senses: rice, timber, gravel, and even manufactured goods - to which end I approve that CHS has decided to add some manufacturing capacity. If the supply issue were not so bad it would be more - and so I presume this will increase if we fix the supply issue from resource centers.
What bothers me is that Malaya right now supports MORE divisions than Yamashita had - competely. He almost called a halt for supply reasons when the British surrendered. You cannot see this. Supply in Malaya should not support this much force. You should have to import a major fraction of what an army needs - but nothing like all of it. Base a division there - it can eat fine. Base a corps or more, you need to be sending supplies. Something like that.

[el cid again]

You could have a delayed entry unit specifically for the area in question - add a "fortification" devise to keep it from moving; as long as the base gets captured before the entry date everything works just fine. I tried this several months ago. The main problem I ran into was lack of data on what areas would require how much supply. Also there's a question of using up a slot (or two if it is a port that is apt to get captured) just to create a supply drain.

I just figured this out in testing. If you do NOT make the unit a fort, it is mobile! Making it a fort means it is stuck. Turns out you can assign 34,403 civil support units to one unit (not sure why that limit)? A support unit eats exactly one supply point, but large numbers come up 5% damaged. Also, large numbers for some reason require MORE supply than just a few (1-10) do. But testing will show how much for any combination. I also am having trouble with leaders - I am getting some Allied Major General to lead Japanese units for some reason! Same guy, all units. Wierd. I will figure it out. The unit won't move and it won't fight and it requires more support than it provides and we can control how many supplies it eats - or wants to eat. Getting there.

[bstarr]

Also, as a side benefit, the unit will give VPs to an opponent who destroys or damages it.
bs

here's a brief thread from my last attempt at civilian supply. It started as a thread on coastal shipping but moved into civilian goods. I didn't get very far, but I made an effort.
bs

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=874790&mpage=1&key=��

[el cid again]

Also, as a side benefit, the unit will give VPs to an opponent who destroys or damages it.

By making the units invisible, and delayed in some places, it may be hard to attack it deliberately when one is strong enough to do that. Then too, one could make a house rule against it. What is the point of improvising a civil economy and then not allowing it? What is the point of destroying a unit that eats enemy supply in the first place? It is sort of like attacking civilian workers. Japan - at least - was too smart to do that. Virtually everywhere Japan kept the civil government in place and let locals run their enterprises - it lacked the manpower to do occupation government like we did and except for the few towns of Borneo that were oil centers (run by IJN), it didn't go that way. In Indonesia (Dutch East Indies) and Vietnam Japan got along rather well, and it paid dividends economically, and eventually mattered in a military-strategic sense - the colonial powers were unable to beat the experienced and equipped local forces - even though in both cases they tried. UNDISTRACTED by major war the colonial powers still could not beat these forces. [See Nasution and Ho Chi Ming/Nugen Giap].

I am looking for ways to make things work - not reasons to ignore the problem.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

By making the units invisible, and delayed in some places, it may be hard to attack it deliberately when one is strong enough to do that. Then too, one could make a house rule against it. What is the point of improvising a civil economy and then not allowing it?

Have a house rule against attacking an enemy base? Or are the units to be hidden in the countryside, invisibly obstructing enemy movement? Both are unworkable.

[el cid again]

In order to make the supply sink unit support neutral, it is necessary to give it support and the imitation civil support squads in equal numbers. The support squads support the civil squads perfectly in that case, and both squads require one supply point, but there is neither a net requirement for support nor ability to support other units.

Leader slot 2990 seems to be a problem. Using other slots is not. This may be why it was blank? I noticed in the device file that some slots do not behave properly - even violating the rules in the manual. For example the stock slot for MXY7 is not an aircraft ordnance slot nor even a Japanese slot, but it works! And MXY7 in other slots sometimes (often) will not work - maybe it is hard coded? And undocumented.

[el cid again]

Have a house rule against attacking an enemy base? Or are the units to be hidden in the countryside, invisibly obstructing enemy movement? Both are unworkable.

OK. NO house rule. I will eat Allied supplies with ALLIED supply sinks - and you cannot attack them as the Allies. I will eat Japanese supplies with Japanese supply sinks - and you cannot attack them as Japan. If the OTHER side enters a supply sink hex - it probably has other units in it - and the process of driving them out or killing them is going to also going to do bad things to the supply sink. It will kill all production as long as hostile troops are in the hex and if the hex changes hands half the industry will be lost - EVERY time it changes hands. If the hostile force comes up with control of the area, the old supply sink no longer has a job anyway - it won't eat enemy supplies. And it may be that I have a different supply sink which will eat the now friendly supplies - but I am not sure it is wise to disclose when it appears or where? Consider it a form of abstraction of the civil economy. It may prevent gamey behavior.
Anyway, still testing.

At the moment I have supply sinks I can control with respect to size, I can anchor so they will not move because of player orders nor enemy action, are wholly unable to attack in any sense, and are of only the most marginal of defense value. They provide no support nor need any support. They can be placed in any hex, at any time. They can even be created by the AI. This is a big step in the right direction.

[witpqs]

This is a really tough nut to crack because the game mechanics don't quite support it. You're right about delayed entry - how can you predict what timetable - or even what kind of back and forth tides or war - will be involved in a hard fought PBEM?

Very interested to see what techniques you discover here.

[el cid again]

This is a really tough nut to crack because the game mechanics don't quite support it. You're right about delayed entry - how can you predict what timetable - or even what kind of back and forth tides or war - will be involved in a hard fought PBEM?

Very interested to see what techniques you discover here.

Pray for me.

In the end, there are limits, and we must compromise. The very design itself involved such choices, and we just don't happen to like the compromises made. But no affordable solution will be perfect. For example, I can't make Japan import supplies as food and still have supplies to export to support its military campaign. So I will ignore that - Japan becomes self sufficient for food (like it really is for vehicle fuel - EVERY vehicle in PRE WAR Japan - in the civil fleet - was self fueling - by law - and so were many military vehicles - the only country ever to achieve this). I guess they run a lot of fishing boats!

[el cid again]

Maybe I can run soy out of Manchukuo as resources? It is not directly very edible - and it is imported for use as food in a hundred ways - after some processing. That way I can get Japan to import some of its food.
The problem is, I can't do much of this - no Northern Resource Points and Southern Resource Points in this WITP (the mechanical game had those).
So ANY resource point becomes oil if you need it. I hate this level of abstraction!

And for the record I would play a realistic logistic model. So would others I know - Joe for example. There is a lot of challenge in running one well. I think less abstraction (but only one level less) would be about ideal.

[el cid again]

I am revising my concept of a pure supply sink.

Now I am proposing a "civil defense unit" which has three functions:

1) It eats supplies.
2) It destroys resources and industry in the hex when the hex falls to the enemy. That is, it damages them. Each point of damage takes a day to repair, so high values can take a long time to come back.
3) It tends to repair the resources, industry and bases in the hex as long as the hex is held by friendly forces, and it impedes capture of the hex, even in the absence of regular military forces.

In order to do this, the unit is composed of equal parts of two kinds of squads: support and civil engineers. Civil engineers are normal engineers with somewhat reduced combat values. Support squads and civil engineer squads both have an anti-armor value of 1 and an anti-soft value of 5 (vice nine for military engineers). Being equal, this means the amount of support required by the civil unit equals the amount of internal support - so there is no impact on military units support wise. [However, if someone argues that an area has some support value for the military, we might allow the numbers to unbalance, with more support than engineers, so that the unit generates that much support - whatever it is thought to be.]

This represents more than just the civil population as consumers. It also represents that population in its technical and military capacity. The unit now has positive military value to the player - it is not just a hungary paracite. It can be visible - and it requires no special treatment.

Such a unit might also include some anti-aircraft guns - to the extent civil manned AAA is present - if balanced by support. Since the amount of support per squad is known, the unit size can be exactly fixed. The AI uniformly damages 5% of squads, but feeds that 5% at half rate - so it reduces supplies consumed by exactly 2.5% for any large number of squads. That is to start - it can build to 100% or decline, depending on supply and other factors.

These units belong in major resource hexes and any major urban hex felt to need simulation of supply eating and civil defense. Major so it does not require too many slots to field them. These major hexes can eat supplies generated from nearby minor resource hexes in some cases.

The reason for the 34,403 limit is they are using a two byte field in hex for data for each weapon - and that is 16 bits in binary. There can be 20 times that many squads in a single unit. More than we need.

The supplies consumed by a squad - 1 per day - is more than 20 men need. So the manpower is skilled manpower and does not represent the entire civil population if the area. The supplies consumed represent on the order of 10 times that much population.

[el cid again]

Civilian communities normally have supplies for two weeks - so civil defense units have organic supplies for 14 days - 14 times the number of squads - as the base case.


Forts are issued as the square root of the number of support squads - which means that the bigger the unit the harder it is to kill - but there is no effective ceiling for reasonable numbers of squads.

The base experience is 30. The base morale is 50. These values could be varied for caust.

[CobraAus]

Just to throw somthing into the mix could these units be evacuated by ship thereby creating civilian evacuation into the game plus putting pressure on shipping for allies early in the game and japan later in the game and supply preasures on the towns cities where their taken

would there be benifits in having this

Cobra AUs

[el cid again]

Just to throw somthing into the mix could these units be evacuated by ship thereby creating civilian evacuation into the game plus putting pressure on shipping for allies early in the game and japan later in the game and supply preasures on the towns cities where their taken

would there be benifits in having this

I have gone to considerable trouble to make these units - and a new "imbedded" variation on them - unable to move by land, air or sea.
Otherwise players could get rid of the supply sinks (and the civil infrastructure that supports that area but isn't very mobile).

I DID think of an exception - a Japanese "unit" that tried to move to Palembang (and was lost in a torpedo attack). It was entirely civil - but organized and mobile - an engineer unit. Is there any interest in such a unit? Is there any Allied unit like that? [There IS an Allied aircraft company that moved from Canton to India - it is STILL in India today making combat planes! It had kits for somethink like a hundred P-35s. It is in India when the game begins. Anyone want it in the game?]

These civil defense units depend on the local population for their abilities - and they are intended to consume the proportion of heavy industry output needed by the local population. So I don't think they should move. They also are intended to represent the civil STRUCTURES as well as people - thus fighting in a major city (where these units are large - consuming lots of supply points- and able to fix damaged infrastructures civil and military) could be ugly - as it SHOULD be - see Manila. Unless you run the units out of supplies - see Singapore.