PBEM

[moses]

A question???

How do you prevent cheating in PBEM????

It seems that I could just restart the turn every time I got an adverse result.

Haven't played PBEM with this system so I just don't know.


How does it work?

[SeaMonkey]

moses, don't worry about it, play the game and have some fun.

Its just like life, when can you detect someone cheating you?

Sometimes, are you sure? Everytime, yeah right, you are some kind of wizard with powers beyond human comprehension.

There is always the possibility, are you going to be paranoid your entire life?

Get over it and have some fun, its just a game, does it really matter?

Be advised, it will all come out in the dirty laundry at the end.

[graf spee]

That's true.
Still I think that with min.effort Matrix could solve this problem.
I play several games online where you must log in to a dice server.
When you roll the actual battle emails are send to the different opponents.
Most of these sites and servers are run by amateurs.
So for a prof.company like Matrix it would not be such a big problem to get such a site up and running.
Maybe something for the next patch??
Regards
Bob

[JanSorensen]

There are two features in the game that counter cheating but its not perfect.

a) A counter is increased each time you load a particular save game and decreased when you save it again. Thus your opponent can tell if you cheated by reloaded. I know, a determined cheater can work around this - please, no need to post how, the less temptation the better.

b) Most dice rolls are determined before your turn even start. Thus replaying a turn to get better dice rolls will have much less impact than it otherwise would have. Sure, you can still improve by replaying a given turn but the impact is a good deal less than if every dice roll would change.

I did a quick search and found these old threads on the subject
- tm.asp?m=831916&mpage=1&key=dice%2Cserver
- tm.asp?m=929948&mpage=1&key=dice%2Cserv ... 41;�

Personally, I dont see it as a major problem and I am not sure it would be worth it to make an option to play with a dedicated dice-server. Neither in development time nor in terms of inconvinience for the players.


@Graf Spee

Could you explain in detail how playing with such a dice servers work maybe? I am definitely interested. Please be very specific in particular with how the system works from the point of the player/game in terms of communications with the dice server - but also from the dice server if you happen to know. The exact flow of information is what I am looking for.

As an example of the kind of detail I am looking for - you say an email is sent out. Any given WaW turn has 100s of dice rolled and some of them even unseen to the player. Exactly how do you suggest this should be presented in a readable format using email?

[graf spee]

Jan,
I am by no means a computer expert-far from that-but I was thinking something like the triple a project for A&A.
It is not necessary for the opponents to receive all the rolls-that can be checked by using the playback function.
Just some message that in a given area a battle has occurt.
For example.
Prior to pressing the attack button in a region one has to login to a server
Opponent(s)than receives a message that a battle has occurt in that region.
I think this would prevent the possibility of attacking a region x.times untill the wanted outcome and then save the game.
I don't know either if it is worth the trouble.
Just thinking
Regards
Bob

[JanSorensen]

I suppose something like that would be possible.

With respect to attacking the same region over and over you have to remember that the dice rolls are pre-determined. Thus making the same attack over and over would only lead to minor changes in the outcome (which opposing unit each of your units attack isnt pre-determined) as each unit still rolls the exact same attack rolls each time.

The major obstacles to making a dice server happen though are:
- the developer time needed to modify the game code to use such a server (as an option)
- the developer time needed to make the dice server code
- the need for a server running non-stop as a dice server.
None of these are impossible to overcome but someone would need to pay the cost for it.

[moses]

Don't anyone take my question the wrong way. I've just never played a IGO-WEGO system by PBEM and was curious how it would work.

I don't know the answer and don't even know if their is a problem. I sort of assumed that their was a simple answer that would be obvious once I was told.

[JanSorensen]

No worries, its a good question. Its good to take a debate about it too - sometimes new insight can lead to new ideas or solutions.

[graf spee]

Jan
I don't see how the dice rolls are pre-determined.
I just attacked the Netherlands 3 times
Each time with exact the three same units.
Each time the results were different
3armor versus 3 inf.
(I will only give the attack rolls)
1.WA inf176-11
G.armor207-23
G.armor205-24
G.armor206-24
WAinf177-21
WAinf178-17

results : Germany 1 unit damaged
WA 3 units damaged
Netherlands taken.

2.G.armor206-40
WAinf.176-21
WAinf178-22
G.armor205-32
WAinf.177-16
G.armor(207)-25

results : Germany 2 units damaged
WA 1 unit destroyed, 2 units damaged
Netherlands taken.

3.WAinf178-15
G.armor205-40
G.armor206-19
G.armor207-18
Wa inf 176-22
Wa inf177-25

results Germany:2units damaged
Wallies : 1unit destroyed
Germany forced to retreat from battle.

These are very different results for the same battle.
Please explain
Thanks
Bob

[Lebatron]

Moses, PBEM works the same as playing hotseat. Say you play the Axis, then you let your friend play the Allies. Then its back to you. The only difference with PBEM is that at the end of your turn you save the game and send it to your oppenent. Its the same as hotseat except turns take longer because of the email delay. So if you have solo played both sides at once, you should have a good idea what I mean.

Graf spee, I am also an Axis & allies player and use TripleA. I was very active in the TripleA forum until WAW became my favorite game. A&A is a game where a reroll can have a huge impact on a battle. Unless you are playing with low-luck. In that case outcomes will be very similar in most cases. You may have noticed WAW is a low-luck game. Since each unit rolls multiple dice its more likely you will receive an average spread. On the other hand, in A&A its either a hit or miss on one die. Anyway, its like Jan said. If you replay a battle take note that each unit will roll exactly the same thing time after time. Because of that, I don't make a fuss when I see the load counter above 0. The way I see it, let your opponent or yourself replay your turn as much as they/you like. Its PBEM after all, and in that format its about giving your opponent your best possible moves. Back in the day when I used to play the good old fashion PBM wargames, it was common practice to change your mind several times before settling on a certain sequence of moves. I don't see why that should change just because we moved from pen and paper to computer.

As long as your opponent does not have consistantly great rolls while you seem to get stiffed time and time again. I would not worry about the counter, because I believe a person should be allowed to change their mind before sending out their turn. In other words, a load counter that reads above zero is not an indication of cheating in my opinion. But when I get short changed consistantly through out the game, and the counter reads zero, then I begin to smell a rat. If you believe your opponent is cheating in that manner, my advice would be to just finish the game and never play them again. But I wouldn't accuse them, because there is no way to prove it.

[Lebatron]

You were starting a new game each time. After a game starts and has been saved that save I figure has the dice rolls seeded in it some how. Try what you did after loading a save over and over and you will see the same units roll exaclty the same thing each time.

The German first turn is the only time you can do this. So in that case you could keep redoing your attack on France until you are satisfied with a fair result. That would be like maybe 1 tank damaged. If you get hammered and lose 3 tanks you would probably restart. If you always recieve a German first turn with no damage you might want to request a redo on that because your opponent might have redone that battle several times to get that result. A good house rule might be to agree on taking a turn that has either a tank or an infantry damaged on the German first turn.

[graf spee]

You are right.
I 'm still learning.
Was surprised when Jan explained about the pre-determined rolls but now it all makes sense.
If this is the way the game determines dice results it does indeed not matter that much if someone rerolls an attack.
Must get back to the trenches.
Lots of learning to do.
bob