Hawaii threatened. What to do?

[AirGriff]

I have a Japanese opponent who is closing in on Hawaii it would seem. This guy means business, too. I'm not what you would call an experienced player, but I've been doing this game long enough to know my opponent is very well in tune with the game. The following is the situation (sorry it's so wordy, but you experts out there will probably want the full Monty) and I'd really appreciate any input since I'm getting slammed on every front. It's Dec 26, 1941 and we are using the AB standard map.

First off, he's taking the PI pretty much as I expected. The southern PI is pretty much wrapped up and he's slowly closing in on Clark Field in the north. Maybe I'm off, but I think he's a little light on his forces in the PI, possibly because he's pushing quite hard everywhere else.

The DEI is falling at a rapid rate. He's got Tarakan, Amboina and most of Sumatra and the southern Celebes. He's about to take Timor, as well. All this is to seal off the shipping, I assume. He hasn't made any moves on Java yet, but that is surely coming. He still has Kendari to take and several other small bases outside of Java. Palembang is about to go, too.

Malaya going as expected. Commonwealth troops getting their collective butts kicked. The really bad thing was Hong Kong fell, are you ready for this? Day one.

China is going as about any would expect. Changsha, Yenen and Sian all threatened. I think he might try a push from the south to take Changsha from the rear, but it's too early to tell yet.

Now the juicy part. After the Pearl attack I don't think he ever retired his KB from the area. He just replenished at sea. He popped several of my TF's heading to and from SF. Didn't do horrible damage other than putting a very nasty dent in my DD population. That was around the 14th or 15th. Starting around the 21st he came in and pounded crap out of Midway and took it in about 3 days with his 56th division. This was quickly followed by landings at Laysan Isl and French Frigate Shoals. If I were a computerized civilian in Hawaii I'd be freaking out by now.

SOPAC's not looking too healthy, either. He's made landings at Funafuti and Nukufetau around the Fiji's. Looks like he's got a small TF heading for Upolu as well. He's been peppering the SWPAC area with expected landings as well, though Rabaul is still mine.

Any ideas on how to deal with this. I don't want to give too many details as to what I'm thinking, but I have to say most of my time is taken up by trying to keep my assets one step ahead of his jaugernaut until he slows down. I didn't give the details of all the little stuff he's doing, but his air and naval tactics are really close to perfect in my opinion. This guy gives new meaning to the phrase "...and they were sent reeling to the rear." Any insight would be much appreciated.

[DuckofTindalos]

If he's bringing the entire Kido Butai, then it'll be very difficult for you to stop him. However, I wouldn't bet a lot of money on his ability to land enough troops at Pearl Harbor to overcome your garrison, especially if you're able to attrite his troopships. I'd make a fight of it all the way in. Use your submarines; even with 80% dud rates, some of them will still work. Keep your carriers on a tight leash, in single CV task forces (leaves less of a foot-print), and out of the way of the KB, if at all possible.

Concentrate as much as you can on his troopships. His carriers aren't going to take Hawai'i away from you, and if his soldiers are paddling around in liferafts, then they aren't either. Good luck!

[moses]

This will be interesting. You should post an AAR just covering just the fight in the Hawaian chain.

I think a landing at PH will be very costly until after he has bombed you're supply down to zero. A landing with say two divisions will be savaged by the CD's I doubt that enough would survive to defeat your troops.

Continous bombing to the point where there is no remaining supply will reduce the island defence to the point where a landing becomes feasable. Until that time I don't know that a landing is possible unless he has brought five or six divisions which I'd doubt he has.

So you're probably looking at a protracted campaign while he takes a few of the less defended islands and tries to set up an air blockade. If he does a good job of this I think there is a good chance of success. Of course it requires that KB and several divisions be commited to the operation for at least several months

[Nikademus]

As it sounds like he is also busy with offensives in China, the PI and Malaya, then he doesn't have enough army troops to assault Oahu. He could try I suppose to scrape together enough assault points from available naval units but that would require most everything he's got and it would take time to concentrate such forces which appear to be busy taking the bases in the SoPac

Build up the fort levels try to keep Hawaii's supply levels above minimum.....KB can't hang around indefinately.

[Feinder]

I've never had an opponent go for Hawaii. But if it were me...

He might land at Hilo or one of the other islands, with a Div or 2 and lots of engineers. He can ramp up his new AF, and then pound the crap out of you.

Would be a bloody affair either way. But if hasn't got enough to hit Oahu immediately, grabbing an AF might allow him to cut off the Hawaiian Islands from reinforecment, until he can bring more guys up.

-F-

[Nikademus]

I've often heard of that gambit.....maybe it's because it hasn't been done to me but I just have a hard time seeing how a Japan player can support such an extended supply line unless he brings a TON of it with him from the get go.

If thats the strategy, perhaps an attack on those extended supply lines would be benefiical?.....

[MarcA]

If he is attacking everywhere at once odds are he is not defending some of his axis of attack well. Work out where KB and mini-KB are and punish him elsewhere with your carriers and raiding surface combat TF's. This should give him pause for thought.

Lots of long range LB's in PH will make his life a misery should he try to attack their. If KB comes in the odds are one or two LB's will get through and stand a reasonable chance of planting one on his carriers. Without KB his bombardment and transport TF's will be easy game. You should have enough garrison and CD units at PH to hurt him when he lands. You can also use the airbase at Lahaina to cover PH if things get desperate.

[AmiralLaurent]

How much Japanese divisions do you count allready employed on the various fronts ? PH is in danger if he brings 4 div or more, but will nevertheless be a hard nut to crack.

As the advices to send submarines to Hawaii my opponent did that and lost a dozen in some days before retiring. The KB is deadly for submarines. The best to do with them is to attack the long supply line between Japan and Hawaii, Japanese forces will need a lot of supplies and fuel to operate there. Sending surface ships from Aleutians attacking the convoys midway between Japan and Hawai may also be a good idea.

As always, fighting the KB in early 1942 is suicidal, so you have in my opinion two options:
_ you accept the suicide and will sail with your CVs to 1 or 2 hexes of teh Japanese CVs and launch a general attack using torpedo aircraft too. Your CV will be sunk, but will probably damage a part of Japanese CVs, especially if they are busy pounding PH for several days. Then try to use your CA, DD and SS, and eventually your BB, to finish the cripples. I will wait for at least a week of action around PH, AA here is deadly for Vals and Kates and will reduce the potential of the KB.
_ you don't want to take the risk and use the time that PH will last to concentrate in another place and for example try to destroy a mini-KB if there is one, or hit a Japanese BB TF or a troop convoy.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: mantill

Lots of long range LB's in PH will make his life a misery should he try to attack their. If KB comes in the odds are one or two LB's will get through and stand a reasonable chance of planting one on his carriers. Without KB his bombardment and transport TF's will be easy game. You should have enough garrison and CD units at PH to hurt him when he lands. You can also use the airbase at Lahaina to cover PH if things get desperate.

In early 1942, US LBA has not enough exp to hit undamaged Japanese carriers trough KB CAP. My opponent sent 100 B-17E against the KB and around half get trough, but scored no hits. At this date the only real threat to an intact KB are dive bombers and torpedo bombers.
Or you can wait for the KB to close and then the CAP will be weaker, as part of the Zeroes will be away escorting raids. So if you plan to attack with your LBA, set a TF off PH the same day to draw Japanese raids. But hitting the KB at long range just means that CAP will be at 80-90% and you will have a rough time going trough for little results.

[Nikademus]

I'd say he would need at least six divisions equivilent to successfully assault Oahu. One could attempt a massive CV battle with LBA in support. Allied side would probably get the worst of it but any substantial damage to KB so far out for base could make things very difficult for the Japan side.

I might be being too optimistic admitedly....i'm not used to playing stock. [;)] Still think he's too committed elsewhere by the sound of it to crack Hawaii successfully.

[Arstavidios]

I you reinforce PH heavliy with troops aircraft and supplies he should not be abe to take it from you.

He threatens your communications to Australia and your cnvoys wil be at risk.

Howver he can't attack everywhere at once. You can't afford to lose PH. So you'd better err on the side of safety. If he does not attack PH you'll be able to use your troops to launch your own offensives from there and retake your line of communications to Australia in late 1942.

If you lose PH you won't be able to retake it before late 1943.

My advice is to send everything you can to PH until you know where he attacks. You can also send a few units to Australia but you have to be careful with your convoys

[AirGriff]

Very good food for thought, guys. Thanks very much. At least I can stop biting my nails about bugging out of Hawaii altogether. I think I'll stand and deliver.

As for hitting him where KB's not, I'm sure he had KB hovering around Midway for his attack there, but have lost track of it the last day or so. Forgot to mention before that he's pretty much rolled up the Aleutians, too. I'm telling you guys, he's everywhere! Mostly it's the light landing forces, but it's so early in the game I haven't been able to concentrate anywhere yet to oppose him, I have hit some of his amphib forces with small surface TF's, which have been moderately successful, but costly, too.

Now, what if this Hawaii business is an elaborate feint? I've seen no moves on his part towards the main islands since the initial landings. His moves around Fiji might point to New Zealand, no? Instead of hitting Upolu or Pago Pago, he landed on Savaii, which is one of the very nearby bases with a size 1 AF ready made. I don't know what he's landed yet, but it's a sizeable unit. The miserable dog keeps taunting me with a big Happy New Year's operation. What do you think?

[Arstavidios]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I've never had an opponent go for Hawaii. But if it were me...

He might land at Hilo or one of the other islands, with a Div or 2 and lots of engineers. He can ramp up his new AF, and then pound the crap out of you.

Would be a bloody affair either way. But if hasn't got enough to hit Oahu immediately, grabbing an AF might allow him to cut off the Hawaiian Islands from reinforecment, until he can bring more guys up.

-F-

Well, that would not be that easy to do.
The Americans have tons of bombers on PH. This would be a bloody mess. The USN could have some fun too. Guess there's a good chance some USS BBs will lurking around PH and would pound the bases every night.

[Nikademus]

could be....the feint is an under-appreciated tactic in a game chock full of hindsight. [:D]

[kfmiller41]

Another thing to consider, and I am assuming you are using the latest patch is that KB can't support a landing by bombing pearl. I tried hanging around Pearl Harbor in a game, attacked the base after a couple of days and Flak shot my planes to pieces. I ended up withover 100 carrier planes lost, and I guarentee that if he attacks for a day ot two he will be out of planes and pilots[:-] which is very bad considering the Japanese pilot pool. He may threaten you but unless he wants to die sooner than what happened in RL he wont invade. Besides he needs to get the SRA and lock it down or his supply situation is going to deteriorate rapidly[X(] I play Japan alot and I have never considered trying to take Hawaii. Heck its hard enough to get singapore, PI and the SRA and maybe Northern Australia with what you have, not to mention Burma which can get tough for Japan as well if left alone. Good luck to you and I think you will be ok. Odds are he is bluffing you and taking midway gives you something to do besides hitting him elsewhere. Just make sure you know where KB is at all times and then raid him to death. He is spreading out and can't cover everything[X(]

[Ron Saueracker]

He might just be isolating Hawaii and hoping you will try to reinforce it. Using KB and some LBA at Midway or Johnston he can gut anything trying to get through. Possibly more beneficial than actually taking PH. Granted, the 4Es at Hickam will do some damage to Midway and Johnston for awhile but once the supply is gone they are targets. Island hopping Rabaul in reverse. A decent patrol line of I boats will net him some goodies too. If he goes for Palmyra and Christmas I bet this is exactly what he is doing as these bases are in C-47 range of Hilo.

[AmiralLaurent]

It is possible to close, ar at least hit hard PH with the KB, the best is to use the Kates to bomb the AF at 15 000 or 20 000 feet, while Vals flew ASW. Losses will be fairly in Japan favor. But the mere presence of KB will be enough to decimate US planes that will try to attack it, without even bombing, just keeping the AC on naval attack orders and blasting any attempt of the USN to interfere with the operations.

As for the number of troops necessary, I did take PH with 5 Japanese divisions, but it took 7 weeks. As for turning PH into a bypassed Rabaul, it won't work... Japan has no B-17E to really close the AF and will have a hard time stopping big supply convoys. Allied can afford to lose 100 AK to keep PH. And the only goof AF at start in Hawaii is PH.

A feint is fairly possible, of course. As I said before, count the divisions used so far. Japan has 12 (Imperial, 2, 4, 5, 16, 18, 21, 33, 38, 48, 55, 56) and 8 Bdes-Rgts available for invading the whole world, it can't be everywhere in force.
If half of the Japanese divisions are unaccounted for, you're in big trouble.

[Feinder]

You can do a number a number on PH, just by hanging around for 2 - 3 days after the intial attack. Parker stuck around for a few days. The AF was completely closed, I had a TOTAL of 5 fighters at PH, and less than 20k supplies, so no replacements. Yes, his airgroups took some beating (probably shot down 20 Vals and 10 Kates), but not a bad exchange for 4x BBs and a bunch of other crap.

Again, having closed the AF (I doubt he knew he had done this), there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it. If he stayed for a week, I'd have been stuck.

Granted, this guy's game is late December. Things can be very different.

But while it wouldn't be my strategy as Japan to invade PH, I'm just saying that you can knock the shit out of PH, with only KB. And if his opponent is going to throw the kitchen sink at him, he's justifiebly worried.

FWIW, his opponent isn't HOLDING those bases he took. All he's doing is landing, stomping, picking up, moving, landing, stomping...

It's likely 2 or 3 mega-TF, each with 50+ APs and an Div embarked. The whole thing unloads in a turn, he stops the base, and he moves on.

The way to defend against that is to make a few heavily concentrated defensive basitions, that can actually stand up to a 2x Div sized landings. Put it out far enough in front of him, that you actually are able to concentrate your necessary to stop him. Get your guys on the ground, and wait.

Also, you can concentrate your own CVs, and attack elsewhere. If he's going after PH, his CVs -will- be along for the party. You might use your CVs to defend with, but then again, you might use them elsewhere, tryting to blunt one of this smash-n-stop invasion TFs. If you actually manage to nail one of his invasion TFs (which would be lucky, don't count on it), that'll certainly stop his advance on that axis. But even if all you do is show up, he stops (because KB is committed to PH). He -may- also come chasing you with his CVs, depending on how disciplined his is (continue the PH op, or go chasing your CVs).

-F-

[moses]

Original: Feinder
I'm just saying that you can knock the **** out of PH, with only KB

Yeah I think this is correct. You can close PH with KB and keep it closed if you want. 2 strikes per week by about 3 carriers worth of Vals should just about do it.

For Japan this means they need thier entire carrier force to maintain this as they need two carrier fleets operating. One bombing PH, the other going to Kwajelin to replace aircraft and sorties. They need to have their whole force because each fleet always has to be able to deal with the possibility of the allied carriers popping out at an inoportune time.

They have to keep this up for several months until they get a couple airbases close to PH operating. Betties from Midway and JI probably won't get the job done. KB is going to take a lot of pilot losses.

Accordingly I would disperse my aircraft and only have limited fighters flying over PH. Let the japanese carrier pilots die from flak while bombing lightly populated airfields.

You want lots of search planes operating from the various small airfields so you can track enemy carrier movements. You carriers are a safe distance off waiting for the bulk of his fleet to leave. Who knows he may try to get away with having two carriers hang around bombing PH while the others head back to replenish.

If he allows PH to recover you can transfer in a bunch of fighters all at once to make a proper fight or transfer in heavy bombers to try and give him a nasty surprise.

No need to take any great risks until he has actually landed at one of the nearby islands.

[SGT Swanson]

I'll have to agree on all the assments. He can't be kicking your arse EVERY WHERE!! Sit back, take a breather, and have a good long look at the map the next time you get it.

I would probably line up my priorities like this:

1) What do I have in India that I can stop him with? Hint: He's got to take Rangoon if he want's to keep moving North at a fast pace. (In a game v. AI it is now 4/27/42 and I still hold Rangoon, and the AI has 80,000+ troops in the hex surrounded by other troops that have shown up.)

2) PH is already maxed out on forts (9). They'll take forever to knock down, and he has to do this in order to take the base. Which means those ENG that he's using elsewhere will be needed. That means THEY can't be used for other duties.

3) Find a place(s) that you can concentrate your forces in China. And move them there. Bombardment is your best option right now with the Chinesse. So start lobing those shells at as many of them as you dare.

4) Get those Recon planes out there!! The Catolina's and Dutch seaplanes have great legs, get them to places where they can use them to your benefit (Darwin comes to mind). See where you can strike with an Aussie BDE or one of the US Regt.s.

5) Use your SUBS man!! Get them to where they're needed most. And keep them at sea!!

6) Hope is no where near lost. You just have to look for the different options and opportuneties he is presenting you.

Last thoughts:

KB and it's replenishment TF must go home sooner or later. They have to restock their own supplies. I'm thinking that he's either going to send them elsewhere or base them out of Midway. Reinforcements are on your side. And you only have to bring supplies to the front. He's got to move Oil/Resources back to the home Islands in order to make more supplies to use. Exploit this advantage as much as possible.

Just remember: For every base he takes, if he wants to base air and/or ships there, then he'll need to base the necessary forces there to sustain them. And, use everything you can think of to recon with. You amy take some loses doing this, but with the way I believe he's playing, it will be worth it in the long run for you.