Soviet aircraft query

[el cid again]

I posted a question which got no attention - not one reply.

Many Soviet planes have NO assigned unit. Does anyone care if they are deleted from the database or not? Do players ever play with them - say by "upgrading" manually? They are listed in the Allied Aircraft thread.

On the subject of the Soviets - I wonder if it might not be better to make a specialized August Storm scenario - or something like it - greatly expanding the Soviet forces?

[bstarr]

I, for one, wouldn't care if the unused Soviet planes were deleted. Especially if the slots were needed for something else.

[sspahr]

Be careful, because while they may not be assigned to a unit they may be part of the upgrade path for another aircraft. Run WITPchk (available at Spooky's ). It will tell you which aircraft are not referenced in the database. If a plane is not referenced, then there's no problem taking it out.

If you do scenarios with later start dates, you could free up lots of slots by removing obsolete aircraft.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Remove Soviet planes? Definitely NO if they are going to be replaced by something as 'widely' used as B-26 armed with torpedo...

Possibly arguable, but better idea is to upgrade every squadron to next plane in their upgrade path, and evaporate obsolete I-15 and I-16 from the game.

[TheElf]

Cid I replied to your question and asked what you were talking about. Your post didn't make any sense.

I am no expert, but as far as the Soviet Naval Air Force and the force composition in the Far East in general I am the closest thing.

First, What do you mean by "They aye are not assigned to any unit?" Are you talking about Stock Scenarios or CHS?

A little known fact about the Soviet Air Force in the Far East:
They were primarily equipped with obsolete Aircraft like the I-16 for most of the war and some units even as late as August 45' So I'd say before you start deleting aircraft in favor of B-26 Torpedo bombers you do some research.

More in a minute...dinner time.

[el cid again]

Be careful, because while they may not be assigned to a unit they may be part of the upgrade path for another aircraft. Run WITPchk (available at Spooky's ). It will tell you which aircraft are not referenced in the database. If a plane is not referenced, then there's no problem taking it out.

I don't trust the tools not to damage the files. So I do it the hard way - record by record examination - field by field. About 1 in 5 Soviet planes are NOT referred to in the air groups data. However, you probably COULD upgrade to them manually. That is why I ask if anyone cares?

[el cid again]

First, What do you mean by "They aye are not assigned to any unit?" Are you talking about Stock Scenarios or CHS?

I mean no unit in China or Russia is assigned the aircraft, or to upgrade to it, in CHS. As far as I know this applies to future CHS as well as to past CHS, because of no changes to Soviet air units.

Since Soviet planes are never used in most games, I regard them as less valuable than ANY other plane, nor matter how rare. However, if they are not used AT ALL, I regard them as a waste of space. The only justification for them is a player might upgrade to them.

I do have a new idea however - I will start a new thread on this one. What if the Soviets are ALWAYS active?

[el cid again]

Possibly arguable, but better idea is to upgrade every squadron to next plane in their upgrade path, and evaporate obsolete I-15 and I-16 from the game.

I do this in general - but NOT for the Russian planes.

First, some are in China.

Second, even in Russia, they did NOT upgrade, mostly.

Third, there are whole strings of planes which NEVER have ANY member appearing!

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

First, What do you mean by "They aye are not assigned to any unit?" Are you talking about Stock Scenarios or CHS?

I mean no unit in China or Russia is assigned the aircraft, or to upgrade to it, in CHS. As far as I know this applies to future CHS as well as to past CHS, because of no changes to Soviet air units.

Since Soviet planes are never used in most games, I regard them as less valuable than ANY other plane, nor matter how rare. However, if they are not used AT ALL, I regard them as a waste of space. The only justification for them is a player might upgrade to them.

I do have a new idea however - I will start a new thread on this one. What if the Soviets are ALWAYS active?

The chinese have their own versions of the I-16 and the I-153 in order to represent the different production levels or Lend-lease supply available to the respective forces.

In the Stock game the ALL chinese variants of the I-16c, I-153c, SB-2c, and IL-4c are used for the first year and a half.

If the Soviet Aircraft are not in the CHS as of now I can pretty much assure you it was an oversight or compromise left over from previous versions. The next Version of the CHS WILL have these aircraft and likely have them assigned to units. Any Aircraft deemed unnecessary/obsolete for even a Dec 7 start will probably be deleted but only after very special consideration and research and at least a majority of agreement between contributors to the Soviet OOB.

Regardless of whether one believes Soviet Aircraft are a waste of space, the trend now is that it is more likely that more Soviet aircraft will be added rather than deleted.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Remove Soviet planes? Definitely NO if they are going to be replaced by something as 'widely' used as B-26 armed with torpedo...

Possibly arguable, but better idea is to upgrade every squadron to next plane in their upgrade path, and evaporate obsolete I-15 and I-16 from the game.

I can see possibly deleting the I-153, as any well planned invasion of Russia would take 100 days to prepare for if not longer. In that time in fantasy land, real life I-153 units would probably have had enought time to upgrade to the I-16.

The I-16 however, as I said above, is actually a mainstay of the Soviet Far East Air Forces in the early to mid war period, and some units were STILL outfitted with them as the August Storm Offensive was gearing up in 1945. So, no. The I-16 should definitely NOT be deleted.

BTW Monter Trismegistos, Alikchi and I are tackling the Soviet OOB for the CHS. Kerguelen was helping us, but if you have any interest in seeing the most accurate OOB for the Far East we'd love to have your help. Or anyone else's who has an interest and good sources. PM me if you want in!

[el cid again]

If the Soviet Aircraft are not in the CHS as of now I can pretty much assure you it was an oversight or compromise left over from previous versions. The next Version of the CHS WILL have these aircraft and likely have them assigned to units. Any Aircraft deemed unnecessary/obsolete for even a Dec 7 start will probably be deleted but only after very special consideration and research and at least a majority of agreement between contributors to the Soviet OOB.

Regardless of whether one believes Soviet Aircraft are a waste of space, the trend now is that it is more likely that more Soviet aircraft will be added rather than deleted.

I myself have contributed to that trend by adding PBN. However, I see no evidence any Soviet air units are being added - there is no charter to do that as far as I know - and they certainly were not in the files I have seen. I am trying to find out if any of the unused planes SHOULD BE assigned to units OR IF any of them are used for manual upgrades by players - or would be in some circumstances. I believe there are way too many types of very similar fighter planes - and if some of these are not to be used I would trade them for other Allied (including indiginous and lend lease Russian planes - PBN is American made but in my system that only applies to Russian ones - where most actuall went IRL).

[el cid again]

It appears the Russian navy won't work unless Russia is active. I mean it cannot supply or even be seen.

[CobraAus]

It appears the Russian navy won't work unless Russia is active. I mean it cannot supply or even be seen.

is this related to the problem we are looking ar via PM that you could only see the soviet ships in the Table - if it is that explains everything

Cobra Aus

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If the Soviet Aircraft are not in the CHS as of now I can pretty much assure you it was an oversight or compromise left over from previous versions. The next Version of the CHS WILL have these aircraft and likely have them assigned to units. Any Aircraft deemed unnecessary/obsolete for even a Dec 7 start will probably be deleted but only after very special consideration and research and at least a majority of agreement between contributors to the Soviet OOB.

Regardless of whether one believes Soviet Aircraft are a waste of space, the trend now is that it is more likely that more Soviet aircraft will be added rather than deleted.

I myself have contributed to that trend by adding PBN. However, I see no evidence any Soviet air units are being added - there is no charter to do that as far as I know - and they certainly were not in the files I have seen. I am trying to find out if any of the unused planes SHOULD BE assigned to units OR IF any of them are used for manual upgrades by players - or would be in some circumstances. I believe there are way too many types of very similar fighter planes - and if some of these are not to be used I would trade them for other Allied (including indiginous and lend lease Russian planes - PBN is American made but in my system that only applies to Russian ones - where most actuall went IRL).

Adding the Soviet PBN is superfluous in my opinion. For the purposes of game balance the Allied PBY or Catalina would suffice particularly since the units we are adding are only two MRAEs of 10 Aircraft each. That does not justify occupying another whole slot with an aicraft that could be just as easily filled by one of the two identical versions already in the database.

[el cid again]

Adding the Soviet PBN is superfluous in my opinion. For the purposes of game balance the Allied PBY or Catalina would suffice particularly since the units we are adding are only two MRAEs of 10 Aircraft each. That does not justify occupying another whole slot with an aicraft that could be just as easily filled by one of the two identical versions already in the database.

In WITP a "nation" is really a service. There are, for example, five different versions of the C-47. Now the Soviet C-47 really is different - it has a turret! It is overweight and has less cargo capacity and range. [It even could drop bombs, but I have not figured out how to do that?] But in general you have a C-47 and a Dakota and an Li-2 and a RsomethingD and a L2D2 just for logistic reasons: so you have separate pools for each nation/service. UNLESS you want to let Russia have UNLIMITED planes, it needs its own pool. I used a different name to help clarify these are Russian PBYs. Not because they are different in any big way, but to have different pools. [If Russia runs out- it cannot suck US planes for example].
This is similar with the Brits - they have a Catalina - we have a PBY - and they cannot suck out planes into their units.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Adding the Soviet PBN is superfluous in my opinion. For the purposes of game balance the Allied PBY or Catalina would suffice particularly since the units we are adding are only two MRAEs of 10 Aircraft each. That does not justify occupying another whole slot with an aicraft that could be just as easily filled by one of the two identical versions already in the database.

In WITP a "nation" is really a service. There are, for example, five different versions of the C-47. Now the Soviet C-47 really is different - it has a turret! It is overweight and has less cargo capacity and range. [It even could drop bombs, but I have not figured out how to do that?] But in general you have a C-47 and a Dakota and an Li-2 and a RsomethingD and a L2D2 just for logistic reasons: so you have separate pools for each nation/service. UNLESS you want to let Russia have UNLIMITED planes, it needs its own pool. I used a different name to help clarify these are Russian PBYs. Not because they are different in any big way, but to have different pools. [If Russia runs out- it cannot suck US planes for example].
This is similar with the Brits - they have a Catalina - we have a PBY - and they cannot suck out planes into their units.

Cid you are thinking way too logiacally and anally. If Russia were an active participant in every game I might agree. But it isn;t and the addition of the PBN only serves a purpose in the Percentage "X" of games where the japanese player invades. This and the fact that the two MRAEs we are toying with addinge here amount a whopping 20 active PBNs.

So how efficient is the use of that valuable slot when the alternative is that the two MRAEs draw off a plentiful supply of Catalina Is or PBYs? Is it that unrealistic an abstraction that you feel using up a slot is better? I think not. We are in the compromise mode here due to limited space.

Putting the PBN in the game is superflous and a waste of a slot.

[el cid again]

Cid you are thinking way too logiacally and anally. If Russia were an active participant in every game I might agree. But it isn;t and the addition of the PBN only serves a purpose in the Percentage "X" of games where the japanese player invades. This and the fact that the two MRAEs we are toying with addinge here amount a whopping 20 active PBNs.

So how efficient is the use of that valuable slot when the alternative is that the two MRAEs draw off a plentiful supply of Catalina Is or PBYs? Is it that unrealistic an abstraction that you feel using up a slot is better? I think not. We are in the compromise mode here due to limited space.

Putting the PBN in the game is superflous and a waste of a slot.

Odd, they want a slot for a whole NINE Sea Hurricanes!

However, while slots are valuable, I have a number of unused ALLIED NON CARRIER slots. In fact, I think there are too many Soviet aircraft - because about 1 in 5 are never used in any unit! But I have no problem with modeling Soviet planes that ARE in units. And I think in future you will see a real role for Soviet PBYs - wether or not there is a war on. I applaud adding them - and do not understand why they were ever missing?

As for thinking too logically - I have been accused of thinking like a computer. Since I accidentally built a computer (it was not my intention) using something more complex than modern binary logic (it used relay logic) as a child, I suppose this is a somewhat meaningful accusation. sorry - its just who I am. I really am not concerned about Soviet planes that get used - just Soviet (or any other planes) without a job.

[treespider]

As for thinking too logically - I have been accused of thinking like a computer. Since I accidentally built a computer (it was not my intention) using something more complex than modern binary logic (it used relay logic) as a child, I suppose this is a somewhat meaningful accusation. sorry - its just who I am.

I bet you also invented the Internet.[;)][:D]

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Remove Soviet planes? Definitely NO if they are going to be replaced by something as 'widely' used as B-26 armed with torpedo...

Possibly arguable, but better idea is to upgrade every squadron to next plane in their upgrade path, and evaporate obsolete I-15 and I-16 from the game.

I can see possibly deleting the I-153, as any well planned invasion of Russia would take 100 days to prepare for if not longer. In that time in fantasy land, real life I-153 units would probably have had enought time to upgrade to the I-16.

The I-16 however, as I said above, is actually a mainstay of the Soviet Far East Air Forces in the early to mid war period, and some units were STILL outfitted with them as the August Storm Offensive was gearing up in 1945. So, no. The I-16 should definitely NOT be deleted.

Not to mention the Chinese Air Force, at least early on. Being the mainstay of the Far East Airforce should come to no surprise to anyone familiar with the region. After all, why base modern planes neeeded in a real life or death conflict when obsolete ones will do? Espicially since the front they aer based at has little or no possibility of becoming active...

[el cid again]

I bet you also invented the Internet.

Nope. But I used to teach in college classes that the computer was really invented by Prof. Willy Messerschmidt! I bet NO OTHER class in English teaches that. But he really did. BEFORE WWII he built a 1 k computer using binary logic and telephone relays (see Green - Warplanes of the Third Reich I think). We tried to build a computer during WWII using vacuum tubes and base 10 logic at the University of Pennsylvania - but failed to complete it during the war. Our SECOND computer used binary, years later. BOTH were gigantic, power hogging things - not desk sized like Messerschmidts. It is why this one guy designed so many planes in that era.