1792 scenario Detailed Battle AAR...Ericbabe?

[Grand_Armee]

A long while ago (version 1.2.17) Garoco and I started up a TCP/IP game where he played France and I was playing Prussia. We've continued it through the current version and are now into 1808.

At first I started out at war with France. But, despite the fact that I was importing horses like crazy from Saxony and Poland, my military growth was being outstripped by France who was winning victory after victory against the Austrians. Due to my paucity in cavalry, I decided to make peace and do some expansion before I raised the sword to France again...or him to me.

Thereafter for 15 years we fought wars of expansion...

One the strategic map, France spreads west into Spain, south to Sicily and Carniola in Austria, and has Sevastopol as a distant outpost. Prussia has annexed all of the Scandinavian lands...yes, including Uppland, all of Germany except for two French protectorates, All of Poland except for one province (Poland was held by Turkey for a very long time and lost Courland to Russia), three states taken from Turkey bordering the Austrian Empire, Bohemia and Austria, and 4 provinces in Central Spain.

After two wars, total war was declared against Sweden. Despite the removal of the Swedish body politic, Sweden still has forces on the map...though they ain't much.

After Prussia found herself in the badboy spot, Spain made two further DOW's against the peaceloving Hohenzollerns. After the second DOW, Prussia transported troops by sea to the one Spanish province owned.

France DOW'd Spain to keep Prussia from gaining too much of Spain. Spain was also at war with Russia. At this time, Spain was down to 6 provinces. Spain surrendered to Russia to keep the fight going with France and me.

THIS IS WHERE SOMETHING ODD HAPPENED. ON THE SAME TURN THAT SPAIN TURNED OVER TWO SOUTHERN PROVINCES TO RUSSIA, MADRID FELL TO MY BESIEGING FORCES. WEIRDLY, NEW CASTILE THE SPANISH HOME PROVINCE, WENT COMPLETELY PRUSSIAN PURPLE.

There was no total war DOW...should this have happened?

After Spain finally surrendered to France and me, there were no more yellow Spanish provinces. Yet, a sizeable Spanish army sits in New Castile Province.

OK, that point taken care of, I can talk about our detailed battle:

My army of nineteen units attacked a Franco-Dutch force of 34 units which had just succeeded in taking the capital of Kleves.

On meeting the French forces, I began to move on their right while denying my right. I had two heavy arty units +one regular and 4 Garde divisions...some highly disciplined infantry, one heavy cav divsions and a few regular cav divs. My firepower and ability to form line were proving superior.

He had 5 atry units...some of them howitzer....and some infantry and cavalry...as well as one militia division. Ther was no way that the 34 units he had in that province were on the map. This I expected.

ISSUE # 1: He called for reinforcements...and they were on the way. I called for my reserve army and got told that I couldn't bring any more units. How is that fair?

Anyway, this is where the game gets dicey. His artillery were eventually able to get in line, while mine were kept in column because I needed the mobility(such as it is with heavy guns in a winter turn).

My left finally collided with his right while my center was able to demoralize his troops despite suffering heavy losses to his artillery. EVentually one of my Garde divisions there was routed.

We closed on the enemy knowing that face to face, an artillery division cannot compete with infantry in line....especially double-line.

ISSUE #2: This front was small, with three of my divisions in line facing one of his in column, another in square, and an artillery division. Both of us have mixed order, but not once did I see a unit make an opportunity charge over many turns.

ISSUE #3: On the periphery of the area not shrouded from my vision by FOW I started to see units that he was highlighting to move. On the bottom portion of the screen there was no indication that there was a unit there. Nothing across the blue banner where the unit name usually resides. No container unit name beneath that, and no percentage chances showing for that unit to change formation.
Eventually these invisible units became adjacent to my own units. I still couldn't see them, shoot at them, or attack them in any way. And, if I had forgotten where they were while trying to move a unit to that hex I got the same result as if I'd tried firing at a unit out of range. I couldn't even see if they were causing me any damage. This problem continued even into the pursuit phase....I'd go to advance, and my guys wouldn't move if I happened to click on a hex occupied by invisible troops.

ISSUE #4: As I mentioned before, one of my Garde divisions was routed after suffering from some particularly nasty French artillery fusillades. Eventually I was able to return it to column formation just as it passed the end of my refused right. For 4 consecutive turns, the cursor would land on it then disappear....I couldn't move my recently undisordered unit.

Continuing the battle:

Just as I thought I might have some movement room on my left and needed to press the attack there, my military advisor popped up saying that their forces had begun to waver. This made me really kick myself into gear. Soon his guys were routing and he called a retreat....this is about 7:30 at night

ISSUE #6: The endless retreat/pursuit! Through the dark of night I chased his units. Some I passed and some I know were far beyond my reach. I didn't see one of them surrender to me. EVery so often my military advisor would pop up and say their forces were wavering, immediately followed by we had driven their forces from the battlefield. This made me suspicious.
Here I am, at 4:30 am still pursuing his forces. The invisible guys were still routing...couldn't see unit names in the transparent banner across the screen. I had expected the pursuit to last THREE turns. It had more endurance than the Energizer Bunny!

Finally, Garoco fell off line. So, the endless retreat/pursuit had an end...but the battle didn't. That was like 5 hours of good fighting wasted. Both of us have decided to stick to QB until DB is fixed.

Both of us have relatively strong and new PC's. The only thing very different is that he has either cable or ISDN while I'm using dial-up. I half wonder if that is a major consideration.

Despite the bugs, this was one of the most enjoyable battles I've fought in any wargame. Nothing can compete with playing a human. I just wish that it had had a proper ending.

[ericbabe]

It is possible for a nation to maintain forces on the map despite holding no territory. Consider that they are soldiers in exile, similar to the Polish soldiers who fled to Italy after the Third Partition.

It's hard to tell what happened in New Castile without my having seen it happen.

ISSUE # 1: He called for reinforcements...and they were on the way. I called for my reserve army and got told that I couldn't bring any more units. How is that fair?

Same rule applies to both players. I could lift the limit on the sizes of battles via reinforcements, braving another series of "the battles are too big" threads.

ISSUE #2: This front was small, with three of my divisions in line facing one of his in column, another in square, and an artillery division. Both of us have mixed order, but not once did I see a unit make an opportunity charge over many turns.

I had an opportunity charge last game I played, so I think it's working in general. It only happens (1) when you're in line, (2) adjacent to an enemy, (3) facing it, (4) at the moment that enemy becomes disordered due to your firing. I'll pay attention to the code next time I playtest.

ISSUE #3: On the periphery of the area not shrouded from my vision by FOW I started to see units that he was highlighting to move. On the bottom portion of the screen there was no indication that there was a unit there. Nothing across the blue banner

I've seen this happen once before. I think it may have something to do with units retreating while other units are entering as reinforcements; thought I fixed it in the 1.2.18 patch, but will try to replicate it again.

[Hard Sarge]

opportunity charge

has been working fine for me

[garoco]

Hi Eric
in my battle against Grand Armee today (11-02-2006), tcpip, I had seen the following things:
1.-In a province I prepare 2 good armies to fight against him, he send me 1 army to attack it, but in this province I had 3 armies: 2 very good and 1 very bad. The machine roll to fight with the worst.
Following turn, I manage again my armies to fill all the units depleted, again he send me 1 army I had 2 good and 1 depleted army, the machine again choose the worst.
Third turn, it had happen the same. My question:
Why if I can choose reinforcements to help defend a province , I ´m unavalaible of do the same when I have 3 armies to defend a single province? this tactic´s limitation is unfair to the player. I don´t believe that the army more depleted must take action in battle when exists 2 good armies.
All the battle were made in QB indeed of the system of DB like Grand Armee wrote it.
2.- Certainly I had rallied Britain to Batavia to help defend of Grand Armee, and her only send few units on the continent, she was unavalaible of send a lot of units on soil Britain because I have sen that the ships aren´t arranged in fleet and I saw that she has a lot of ship to disembark in Batavia like Allied and she doesn´t made.
3.- You wrote about of that yet: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Britain and Austria are my allieds, but not de Prussia, indeed Britain and Austria are in war, but if I´m in war with Prussia, Austria is my allied and not of Prussia, why avoid that she is in war with Prussia because is in war with Britain, Austria was unavalaible of declare the war Prussia all the time. Of course Britain and Prussia are in war too.??? Good Allied, isn´t it? to think a little better?

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: garoco
in my battle against Grand Armee today (11-02-2006), tcpip, I had seen the following things:
1.-In a province I prepare 2 good armies to fight against him, he send me 1 army to attack it, but in this province I had 3 armies: 2 very good and 1 very bad. The machine roll to fight with the worst.
Following turn, I manage again my armies to fill all the units depleted, again he send me 1 army I had 2 good and 1 depleted army, the machine again choose the worst.

They aren't actually chosen randomly.

Third turn, it had happen the same. My question:
Why if I can choose reinforcements to help defend a province , I ´m unavalaible of do the same when I have 3 armies to defend a single province? this tactic´s limitation is unfair to the player. I don´t believe that the army more depleted must take action in battle when exists 2 good armies.

I would recommend not putting the bad army in the province with the armies with which you would prefer to fight.

I think adding a system of choosing which units participate would be too much work for the playability it would add -- it would be a lot of work for something that wouldn't come into play that often.

2.- Certainly I had rallied Britain to Batavia to help defend of Grand Armee, and her only send few units on the continent, she was unavalaible of send a lot of units on soil Britain because I have sen that the ships aren´t arranged in fleet and I saw that she has a lot of ship to disembark in Batavia like Allied and she doesn´t made.

This has been reported.

3.- You wrote about of that yet: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Britain and Austria are my allieds, but not de Prussia, indeed Britain and Austria are in war, but if I´m in war with Prussia, Austria is my allied and not of Prussia, why avoid that she is in war with Prussia because is in war with Britain, Austria was unavalaible of declare the war Prussia all the time. Of course Britain and Prussia are in war too.??? Good Allied, isn´t it? to think a little better?

Before we had this rule there were many asymmetrical wars and beta testers (I think rightly) found that very unhistorical.


Eric