Pearl Harbor musings...

[akdreemer]

I have put together a quick and dirty set of notes from reading the after action reports of the various vessels at Pearl Harbor during the Dec 7th attack. Some of this might have had some discussion before and some of it is new (I think). For instance, there is a good example of an oiler being used as a transporter for PT Boats (USS Rapamo), a ship not in the database that had a quite active service (USS Argonne AG-31, ex AS-10, ex AP-4) that rightfully should be in the game, how I use the UTAH in my mod, and some interesting info in the 3"/23 AA. It appears that it was used in far greater numbers than the current scenario accounts for.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

... some interesting info in the 3"/23 AA. It appears that it was used in far greater numbers than the current scenario accounts for.

Is that land-based, AW?

[Don Bowen]

There are a couple of very good points here.

First, the Gamble class DMs should probably have 3/23s. This was the standard "large" AA gun of the Wickes/Clemson class and the DM conversion was rather limited, so retention of 3/23 was very probable.

Second, the Cimarron class AOs actually had two sub-groups. CHS has only the version of the name ship ("List 1" with four 5in guns and no 3in) but the second variation was more common - List 2 with 1 5in and 4 3in. Neosho was List 2. It is very difficult to find calibers of guns on auxiliaries but 3/23 at the time of Pearl Harbor is very possible. The 3/23 was in the process of being replaced by the 3/50 but there is little data on how far this had progressed. The only well-detailed description of the Cimarron class comes from late-war. when the 3/50 were carried (List 2 only). It may well be that some ships of the class had 3/23 and others 3/50 as of December, 1941. I'm not sure that the verified use of 3/23 on a single ship justifies converting the entire class but it may be worth while splitting the Cimarrons into List 1 and List 2.

The only difference between List 1 and List 2 is the replacement of 4 5in in List 1 with 1 5in and 4 3in in list 2. In list 2 the 5in was right aft and the 3in in tubs, one on each quadrant, so either 2x1 RS/LS or 2x1 F/R would be acceptable.

Also, I have wondered how to use Argonne but never seem to come to a conclusion and continue to leave her out.

I'll avoid commenting on Utah, this is an old subject that tends to draw impassioned responses.

[Lemurs!]

I think there is justifiable evidence that Utah should be in game as a Romulan bird of prey.
6 Plasma launchers and 12 disruptors.
[;)]

Mike

[witpqs]

What size plasma launchers?

[treespider]

BIRD-OF-PREY

PRODUCTION BASE: Qo'noS Orbital Factory Base.

TYPE: Cruiser. (See CHS had it right in classing it as a cruiser)[;)]

ACCOMODATION: 100 plus flight crew and troops.

POWER PLANT: One M/A warp system feeding two nacelles; two impulse system.

DIMENSIONS: Length, 157.76 meters; beam, 181.54 meters; height, 98.54 meters.

MASS: 400,000 metric tonnes.

PERFORMANCE: Warp 9.6.

ARMAMENT: Four ship-mounted disruptor cannons; two torpedo launchers.


http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Saturn/4492/kling.html

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

What size plasma launchers?

Type R.....gotta go with type R. [;)]

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


There are a couple of very good points here.

First, the Gamble class DMs should probably have 3/23s. This was the standard "large" AA gun of the Wickes/Clemson class and the DM conversion was rather limited, so retention of 3/23 was very probable.

Second, the Cimarron class AOs actually had two sub-groups. CHS has only the version of the name ship ("List 1" with four 5in guns and no 3in) but the second variation was more common - List 2 with 1 5in and 4 3in. Neosho was List 2. It is very difficult to find calibers of guns on auxiliaries but 3/23 at the time of Pearl Harbor is very possible. The 3/23 was in the process of being replaced by the 3/50 but there is little data on how far this had progressed. The only well-detailed description of the Cimarron class comes from late-war. when the 3/50 were carried (List 2 only). It may well be that some ships of the class had 3/23 and others 3/50 as of December, 1941. I'm not sure that the verified use of 3/23 on a single ship justifies converting the entire class but it may be worth while splitting the Cimarrons into List 1 and List 2.

The only difference between List 1 and List 2 is the replacement of 4 5in in List 1 with 1 5in and 4 3in in list 2. In list 2 the 5in was right aft and the 3in in tubs, one on each quadrant, so either 2x1 RS/LS or 2x1 F/R would be acceptable.

Also, I have wondered how to use Argonne but never seem to come to a conclusion and continue to leave her out.

I'll avoid commenting on Utah, this is an old subject that tends to draw impassioned responses.

Friedman in US Destroyers Design and Construction states that the large scale prewar Flush Deck conversions to ASW vessels ended before the Pacific Fleet units were converted due to using up the pre-war stock of 3"/50. There would always be a proiority for guns to new construction, thus it might have been quite some time before the old 3"/23 were replaced. Indeed thsi gun would be in great demand just from the Liberty building program, let alone the DE's... What fun it would be perusing the Ship's logs of the vessels in the war in the Pacific. I am starting on a project to determine the various mods to the British Cruisers during WWII, with the goal of giving them one more upgrade around late 44 early 45 which would be primarily an AA upgrade for the Pacific.

[Don Bowen]

For British Cruisers, try and find a copy of:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155750 ... oding=UTF8

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


For British Cruisers, try and find a copy of:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155750 ... oding=UTF8

Have a copy, thanks .. I will depend primarily on Alan Raven and John Roberts "British Cruisers of World War Two". Perusing the volumn there was a massive upgrading of the AA in late 1944/early 1945, most of it appears to be the replacement of 20mm with 40mm Bofors Mk III and Boffins.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

I will depend primarily on Alan Raven and John Roberts "British Cruisers of World War Two". Perusing the volumn there was a massive upgrading of the AA in late 1944/early 1945, most of it appears to be the replacement of 20mm with 40mm Bofors Mk III and Boffins.

Well, that one is well outside my affordability level. I'll be looking forward to your postings on the subject.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

I will depend primarily on Alan Raven and John Roberts "British Cruisers of World War Two". Perusing the volumn there was a massive upgrading of the AA in late 1944/early 1945, most of it appears to be the replacement of 20mm with 40mm Bofors Mk III and Boffins.

Well, that one is well outside my affordability level. I'll be looking forward to your postings on the subject.

Yeah sort of outside mine too, but fortunately the University Library here in Anchorage has a good serviceable copy for check-out.