tank battles in MCNA with 7.1

tomaszp · Post by **tomaszp** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:07 pm

After installing version 7.1 I noticed that it takes more hits to destroy a tank. For example, British Cruiser Mk I or Mk II needs 3 or 4 hits (sometimes 5) from my PzIIIe's and IVd's. As a hit I count only the case when penetration is higher than armour width and a tank takes damage.

I've just finished the third scenario of MCNA (first battle in Agedabia Region), I looked over the battlefield and I noticed that 70% of enemy tanks (Mk I's, Mk II's, Mk III's and Mk IV's - I don't count Vickers) are not destroyed but only abandoned. I assume that even after those 4 hits, a tank was able to commence fighting but the damage forced the crew out of it.
The situation looks different for 2.8 FJ ATG. En enemy tank rarely (or maybe never) survived the first hit by one of those. Those two guns, actually, destroyed the most of enemy tanks.

My PzIIIe's were only able to damage enemy tanks and, eventually, force the crew to abandon it. A hit by PzIIIe VERY rarely destroyed a tank. The situation looked little bit better for PzIVd's. They scored some "destroyed tanks" but only a few.

Since I don't know the history well enough to judge if the results of this battle could be accurate (especially if such an abandoned/destroyed ratio is possible), I'd like to ask you about it.

Most of you play MCLV now and I assume that 7.1 version increases the accuracy of tank fighting in this MegaCampaign. But tanks on eastern front had more powerful guns and thicker armor comparing to North Africa theatre. Maybe the previous model worked better for MCNA.

I have a second Agedabia battle ahead of me. It seems it will be a large one judging from my forces' size so I'll be able to recheck and verify what I wrote above.

Regards,
Tomek Pomorski

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:43 pm

I can't copy this Tomek; I just loosed two Matildas with first shots from Pz-IIIe's. Never before happened that !!

... and I wish I could play also...

mosh

tomaszp · Post by **tomaszp** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 6:37 pm

Well, thanks. It's quite encouraging. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Last time I saw Matilda on my flank I almost jumped off my chair. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

I haven't met Matildas yet with 7.1, but in 7.0 I was able to eliminate it only by forcing crew to abandon it or by direct shot from one hex behind. I was afraid it'll get even harder with 7.1.

Maybe results of my first battle with 7.1 were an exception. I'll post the results of the next one right after I finish it. I'll write exact statistics this time.

Regards,
Tomek Pomorski

JWW · Post by **JWW** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:04 pm

Originally posted by Tomek:
For example, British Cruiser Mk I or Mk II needs 3 or 4 hits (sometimes 5) from my PzIIIe's and IVd's.

That seems to be a good description of my typical 7.0 experience.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:31 pm

A looong time ago Paul posted that tanks can take up to several rounds before being destroyed. I *think* he said 5 was the average in WWII. Of course catastrophic kills occur too. Recently there was a post by him that said that skirts would be increased in effectiveness. That it would take several shots to damage them, then the tank would be directly vunerable. I can't seem to find the post to quote it.

mao · Post by **mao** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 8:29 pm

"The situation looks different for 2.8 FJ ATG. En enemy tank rarely (or maybe never) survived the first hit by one of those. Those two guns, actually, destroyed the most of enemy tanks."

The FJ 2.8 AT was always a good weapon... even in v6.0 it seemed to kill most tanks it hit (except for Matlidas) with the first shot --- I love them when they are assigned to me in MCNA, but they tend to run out of ammo <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Anthony_MatrixForum · Post by **Anthony_MatrixForum** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:28 am

Just getting to Tobruk in MCNA - puff puff

I agree - the Brit cruisers are now harder to kill - often taking 4+ direct hits before
being damaged or destroyed. (7.1)

However, I _never_ got a penetrating kill on Matilda IIs in 7.0, with 7.1 I have seen 2-3 now, with ATGs or IVd's (never IIIe's ), one was even from the front ! (vulnerable location)

Anthony

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:45 am

Similar to other things in like, this one is "it all depends".

I'm playing undr v7.1, the newest, and a PzIIIj took out two T-34's (m.41) from two and three hexes with two successive rounds. I found out via the combat.txt file the IIIj was using APCR and the To Hit wasn't all that high.

The gunner "got hot" is all I can surmise. I see this happen with units other than armor, too. Flamethrowers, even regular automatic small arms fire. And I"ve done the same, with my gunners, when they were not supposedly all that talented.

Keeps one on one's toes, it does.

Bking

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:46 am

That is good news on the Matildas. I have never fully agreed as to their seeming invulnerability from close range with dozens of shots.

To know that they can now be killed is encouraging. Of course toughening the others ones means you still have a hard war to fight, Colonel Dietsl! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Wild Bill

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:30 am

Just read last night about guys shooting HE -rounds with 150mm IG on T-34s. They did hit hard but didn't penetrate. Crews bailed out because their tanks inside was messed up and their ears were bleeding because of impacts power. I've seen in game very similar things happen and have killed many of T-34s with large infantry guns and short barreled Stugs. In past I never succeeded to do this against Matildas. Now it seems to be possible.

mosh

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 12:55 am

Tell my T-34 crew that, the ones who are still alive that is. Got hit by a 150 HE round at about three hexes, form I believe a sIG-33. Goodbye, scrap metal. Wasn't HEAT either, not unless the combat.txt file has it all wrong and I think this particular German unit doesn't come with HEAT.

I have gained respect for the sIG-33 I will tell you that. Lucky shot .......

Bing

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:14 pm

Originally posted by Bing:
Tell my T-34 crew that, the ones who are still alive that is. Got hit by a 150 HE round at about three hexes, form I believe a sIG-33. Goodbye, scrap metal. Wasn't HEAT either, not unless the combat.txt file has it all wrong and I think this particular German unit doesn't come with HEAT.

I have gained respect for the sIG-33 I will tell you that. Lucky shot .......

Bing

Wait util you run into their big brother the Stumtiger. Not a mear 150mm but a big strapping 280mm. The collateral damage alone is worth the unit.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:19 am

pbear: You must've mistyped. Try 380mm. Here's a partial quote from achtungpanzer.com

The Sturmtiger was armed with a short-barreled 38cm Raketenwerfer 61 L/5.4, breech-loading rocket launcher/mortar. The RW 61 launcher fired short-range (4,600 to 6,000 meters, or 2,850 to 3,720 yards) high-explosive rocket-propelled projectiles. The launcher was fitted with a PaK Zielfernrohr 3 x 8 telescopic sight. Each projec-tile was almost 1.5m (five feet) long and weighed 345 to 351kg (759 to 772 pounds). Two types of ammunition were available-high-explosive Raketen Sprenggranate 4581 (with a 125kg, or 275 pound, explosive charge) and shaped-charge Raketen Hohladungsgranate 4582 for use against fortifications. The shaped-charge round could penetrate up 2.5m (8 feet) of reinforced concrete. The Sturmtiger main arma-ment was originally developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig in Dusseldorf from an anti-submarine depth charge launcher developed for the Kriegsmarine.
The main armament could be traversed by hand 10 degrees to the left and right and elevated from 0 to a maximum of 85 degrees. The launcher produced a recoil force of 30 to 40 tons. Perhaps the most unique feature of the launcher was the way rocket exhaust gasses were vented. These gasses could not be allowed to enter the fighting compartment, and the breech was not strong enough to resist them until the rocket left the barrel, so they were channeled through ventilation shafts around the barrel with numerous exit holes surrounding the muzzle. The result was a spectacular flash when the weapon was fired. Because of this, the Sturmtiger had to move after each shot because its position was revealed to the enemy. The launcher barrel was later fitted with a steel ring as a counterweight to improve elevation and aiming.
Sturmtiger could demolish any building or other target with a single shot, but it could carry only 14 rocket projectiles inside the superstructure. Twelve projectiles were stored in two stowage racks, one more in the launcher and another on the load-ing tray. Most vehicles carried only 13 rounds, without the one on the loading tray. The vehicle was equipped with a hand-operated lifting crane mounted on the right rear of the superstructure. This was used to load projectiles into the vehicle and needed the entire crew of five to operate.

"...up to 8ft. of reinforced concrete." Hmmm