research limits

[WanderingHead]

There has been a lot of support for the new research limits, namely the 3,6,3 research points per turn for 0,1,2+ over WS.

I think it is good in principle, but still imperfect.

For one, it is awfully abrupt. If you have any significant number of units, it basically means that you get to WS+2 and not further. I'd prefer that it simply limit at 6 research points per turn, making it less abrupt.

The other issue is the penalty for having many units. I think it makes perfect sense to make it cost more to upgrade units, but I don't think it makes sense to make it take so long. I'd like to keep the bumped up cost per existing unit, but allow more research points to be purchased given many units so that it doesn't put an end to any upgrade options.

The research cost goes up 1 per 5 units, I think. What about something making the per turn limit something like this:

at or below WS: max(3, N/10), where N=number of units.
above WS: max(6, N/10), where N=number of units.

In this way, at the end game when you have huge stacks, you would still be able to benefit from research, as opposed to basically just being stuck where you are.

[Uncle_Joe]

After a few games with the new system, I think I prefer it. Yes, its abrupt, but that OK...its better than Super Units IMO.

Also, I think it makes a lot of sense that when you have a ton of units you cant just upgrade them all so quickly. Examples abounded of this in WW2 where a new tank or plane was produced but it could take a long time (or never) to get them as the 'standard' throughout the field units.

Tanks like the Pershing or the IS-2 were miles ahead of their predecessors, but were never available in numbers to make a real difference. Germany was master that problem. They rolled out new gadgets left and right but were unable to field them in sufficient quantities to overcome the tides.

So, for me, I think its OK now. Going more than 2 over WS means that you most likely wont get much higher and thats just dandy IMO because the results start to get really skewed when there are large disparities in tech level. And those results start to generate completely unrealistic battles which I think the game is better off without.

[WanderingHead]

As for the abruptness (and ignoring the unit quantity issue for now), I'd even prefer something like

at or below WS: 3 per turn
above WS: 4,5 or 6 per turn

Above, I wrote 6 per turn for >WS. But even if it were 4 or 5, but remained constant for all levels above WS, I'd prefer that. It would slow you down getting to WS+2, but still leave it somewhat feasible to get to WS+2 or beyond, without making it easy.

[Forwarn45]

I like the current limits and wouldn't change them. The only idea I like more was the suggestion to separate research cost from upgrade cost. But I think that would require a substantial re-write of the code - so I'm content to let things be.

[WanderingHead]

It just bothers me that it takes the same amount of time to go from WS to WS+1, WS+1 to WS+2, and then all of a sudden it takes 3x longer to go from WS+2 to WS+3. That's a big jump!

The cap of 6 ResPts/turn at WS+2 only takes 1.5x as long as baseline, so perhaps not enough. But capping everything at 5 ResPts would make WS+1->2 take 6/5x as long as baseline and WS+2->3 take 9/5x as long as baseline. In total it would take 3x baseline to get from WS+1 to WS+3, whereas it used to be 2x baseline and the current beta patch is 4x baseline.

Also, from a rule simplicity standpoint it just seems to be much clearer to say that there is an absolute cap on research points per turn.

As for the unit quantity, I definitely agree it should take longer with more units, in addition to costing more, I just think it shouldn't be so draconian. E.g. I'd like to avoid damaging your own infantry to accelerate research as a viable option (maybe it doesn't really matter any more with the WS+2 limit).

It doesn't seem to make sense that it would take longer to research 50 existing units up to a new level than it would to do the research with no units in existence and then build 50 units. I haven't done the analysis, but I bet that it is possible for the USSR, at least, to be in that situation (given its large population).

Oh well, looks like there's not much concern from others on the topic.