Inland Ferries, Port Alice and Nikolaevsk

[el cid again]

There are problems with the economy of Canada and USSR.

The Canadian problem is Port Alice. It is not fed automatically by the AI.
While you CAN march overland to it, supplies do not go that way - no trail or road or rail line. But there is a significant ferry route from Vancouver and Victoria to Port Alice. There is also a road (today) - but was there during WWII?

Russia needs to "import" oil from Okha, Sakhalin or its economy won't work. But it cannot. There is no port at the Mouth of the Amur River - Nikolaevsk. If there were, the AI should move supplies and resources between the adjacent ports. However, there is also no rail line between Nikolaevsk and Khabarovsk (there is certainly one today). But the Amur itself is a major waterway. Ships built inland are floated down the Amur to the sea, then taken to Vladavostok to complete. Certainly supplies and resources can move by barges or ferries up and down the Amur.

Unless we can learn if the Rail line to Nikolaevsk or the road to Port Alice existed in WWII - I propose to connect them by inland ferry routes - up the inside passage or down the Amur river. This is the equal of an invisible trail - and would permit automatic resolution of the economic problems in both areas (hopefully).

[el cid again]

Testing indicates this creates small regional colonial economies -
notably in the Philippines and in the Dutch East Indies. The problem in the Philippines is - there is no local oil supply. But until the oil store is drawn down, it works.

Similarly, the Soviet economy now functions, and it, like the Indies, has an oil supply.

Finally, the problem "feeding" Port Alice is mitigated - but not eliminated! Seems there is some sort of limit on the supply capacity that moves this way. It was guessed by a programmer that it would move infinite amounts of supply - but it appears this is not so. Exactly why is not clear.

Problem: Tsushima. IF Tsushima were given a ferry service, OR IF it were built to a level three port, it would then "connect" Korea/Manchukuo/North China to Japan. That would feed too many resource points one way, and supply points the other way, without requiring ships. So I am experimenting by (a) not providing a ferry service and (b) by blocking the hex sides so the automatic shipping feature between ports cannot be enabled if Tsushima is built to level 3 or above.

[JeffroK]

Port Alice,

http://www.hellobc.com/NR/rdonlyres/C99 ... island.pdf

http://home.cablerocket.com/~mscott/norseman.html

As you say, there is a road there now, my 1921 map only shows there is no railroad then.

There also doesnt seem to have been more than a Village and a pulp mill.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Port Alice,

http://www.hellobc.com/NR/rdonlyres/C99 ... island.pdf

http://home.cablerocket.com/~mscott/norseman.html

http://home.cablerocket.com/~mscott/Townsite.html

As you say, there is a road there now, my 1921 map only shows there is no railroad then.

There also doesnt seem to have been more than a Village and a pulp mill.

Should it really be Coal Harbour (I havent seen this site before, it may also answer some RCAF questions!

http://www.rcaf.com/squadrons/1-100seri ... uadron.php

http://www.junobeach.org/e/4/can-tac-air-hwe-e.htm

Finally, fromhttp://groups.msn.com/cahsregina/donohearne1.msnw

Don’s next postings was the brand new RCAF station at Coal Harbour,
B.C., on the northern tip of the Queen Charlotte Islands near the site of
the present-day CFS Holberg electronic eavesdropping post. Coal Harbour was
on a coastal inlet about 12
miles inland from Port Hardy. “It was isolated as hell,” Don said.
“Almost nothing there, just seagulls and bears.” Getting there meant
sailing to Port Hardy, then driving (or more likely walking) along the
logging road to the station, which, “didn’t look that good
at night -- and in the morning, it didn’t look any better.”
It was cold and
muddy, with wooden “duck walks” connecting buildings. Two
Stranraers sat on the inlet. Duties, initially, were mainly guard duty
(“with Lewis guns -- with no ammunition”) plus “a lot of foot drill and
exercise and not much else. Coal Harbour consisted of a house, a store
and not much else ... we really didn’t know why we were there, because
nothing was ready.”

[el cid again]

Sounds like a lot of places in Alaska, same period.

[JeffroK]

Nikolaevsk

I can find lots of scraps about the building of railways to Nikolaevsk but they imply the tracks were taken up in WW2 and sent to the Staligrad region?? Doesnt help there is a Novo-Nikolaevsk, nw Novosibirsk and another Nikolaevsk in Alaska!!

The Amur seems to have been the major transport route being navigable to Khaborovsk. It still appraers to be a major line of communication (No roads) along with the railroad.

[treespider]

I have a map of Manchuria prepared by the Land Survey Department, 1935 and rereleased as AMS 5205, in 1942.

On the map - Khaborovsk is in the NE corner. The only rail lines from Khaborovsk head west and south. With the Amur flowing NE.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider

I have a map of Manchuria prepared by the Land Survey Department, 1935 and rereleased as AMS 5205, in 1942.

On the map - Khaborovsk is in the NE corner. The only rail lines from Khaborovsk head west and south. With the Amur flowing NE.

If I remember correctly, when I investigated Okha and Nikolaevsk, I discovered that there was no railway to the port during WW2. Oil from Sakhalin was transported to Komsomolsk via an oil pipeline.

The problem with Port Alice can be resolved by attaching the base to a command other than Canada Command or the West Coast. Not ideal but it is good enough for me until it gets fixed in the code.

Andrew

[el cid again]

I am becoming convinced that the Amur as a ferry route is the correct solution for Russia - since we don't do pipelines - and since it also moves troops and resources - but not very fast.

As for Port Alice, I like the inland shipping solution. It is actually what was used - although not as a commercial ferry - and it leaves it under the right command. Inland is a slightly confusing term - it means inshore of Vancouver Island.

[JeffroK]

Can you change the name of the Port Alice base to Coal Harbor, as thats where the RCAF had their base. As it is on the mainland side of Vancouver Island it fits the above solution.

[el cid again]

Can you change the name of the Port Alice base to Coal Harbor, as thats where the RCAF had their base. As it is on the mainland side of Vancouver Island it fits the above solution.

(in reply to el cid again)
Report | Post #: 10

Done

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can you change the name of the Port Alice base to Coal Harbor, as thats where the RCAF had their base. As it is on the mainland side of Vancouver Island it fits the above solution.

It looks like you are right. I will add this to the fix list for my next map update.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I am becoming convinced that the Amur as a ferry route is the correct solution for Russia - since we don't do pipelines - and since it also moves troops and resources - but not very fast.

The reason I didn't do this was that such a route, using a railway or road where no such route existed, can also be used for a "backdoor" invasion route by the Japanese.

I wonder how realistic it would be for a large invading force to advance along a river, presumably using river transport, where there were no roads or railways?

Andrew

[JeffroK]

I think the Japs has some experience in China, but the terrain in the area is horrendous, and from memory 3-400 miles.

But then you couldnt access Burma from Siam!

[el cid again]

The reason I didn't do this was that such a route, using a railway or road where no such route existed, can also be used for a "backdoor" invasion route by the Japanese.

I wonder how realistic it would be for a large invading force to advance along a river, presumably using river transport, where there were no roads or railways?

First, note that I am not using road or rail movement rates for the river ferry system - it is the slower trail movement rate.

Second, note that many times in history river transit was used just this way. In this period Japan had a fair number of riverine and inshore craft of many types - even including "air boats" ( shallow draft vessels with aircraft engines driving them using propellers - swamp boats ) - proper river gunboats - conventional landing craft - barges and all sorts of small and medium vessels. As long as the rate of advance is not like driving down a road, I see no problem at all with it.

And, FYI, the inland ferry system feeding Port Alice/Coal Harbor is also at the slow transit rate - not like having a rail line there.

[el cid again]

But then you couldnt access Burma from Siam!

Actually you could, can and it has been done more than a few times. There were two different suitable rail routes - both surveyed by Europeans before the Japanese ever thought about it - and both considered by the Japanese. The other one, farther North, is shorter, but has to deal with more mountains, and thus is more difficult a construction project. Given time, Japan can build ANY sort of railroad. In the pre war period Japan built "the first under ocean railroad tunnel" between Honshu and Kyushu. Today they have "the longest under ocean railroad tunnel" between Honshu and Hokkaido - something like 110 km long! It is a high speed line, and has a very shallow gradent. The movie Bridge on the River Kwai offended Japanese viewers - not because it portrayed brutality by Japanese soldiers - this is not a big deal in Japan - but because it suggested they needed British help to build a railroad bridge!

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
I wonder how realistic it would be for a large invading force to advance along a river, presumably using river transport, where there were no roads or railways?

In this region it was impossible beacause of Amur Flotilla, Soviets had a lot of ships there.

[el cid again]

In this region it was impossible beacause of Amur Flotilla, Soviets had a lot of ships there.

There certainly was a Soviet Amur Flotilla. But there also was a Japanese allied one - most of the Manchukuo navy was on the Amur - and so were a number of Japanese vessels. The Soviets also had some good ideas for armored river gunboats - using tank turrets! But this hardly makes a military operation "impossible." In fact, it is the other way around - sufficient ground power goes a long way toward negating the riverine forces, not the other way around. You can sneak around and move some things at night - you can raid - but you cannot defeat a major land force with a small riverine one. IF the Soviets want to defend the Amur frontier, they need to do it with a division.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

We are not talking about defeating land advance, but defeating any naval(riverine) landing attempt. In 1945 Amur Flotilla had 8 big and heavy armed monitors, 13 gunboats and 52 armoured cutters. Manchurian Sungari War Flotilla was smaller: 4 monitors, 11 gunboats, 15 armoured cutters.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

But then you couldnt access Burma from Siam!

Actually you could, can and it has been done more than a few times. There were two different suitable rail routes - both surveyed by Europeans before the Japanese ever thought about it - and both considered by the Japanese. The other one, farther North, is shorter, but has to deal with more mountains, and thus is more difficult a construction project. Given time, Japan can build ANY sort of railroad. In the pre war period Japan built "the first under ocean railroad tunnel" between Honshu and Kyushu. Today they have "the longest under ocean railroad tunnel" between Honshu and Hokkaido - something like 110 km long! It is a high speed line, and has a very shallow gradent. The movie Bridge on the River Kwai offended Japanese viewers - not because it portrayed brutality by Japanese soldiers - this is not a big deal in Japan - but because it suggested they needed British help to build a railroad bridge!

A total waste of time being sarcastic here.

I meant to imply, that despite the accepted military wisdom of the time which saw the Invasion of Burma from Siam as impossible, the Japanese managed to do it. Therefore wondering if the Japs could use the Amur to invade, even though considered impossible by many, would just be another hurdle for the IJA to climb over.

Instead we get a serving of making tunnels decades after the war and the poor Japanese population being insulted by a bad movie.