Battleship Availability: stock, CHS & RHS (Japan Revised)

[el cid again]

Section 1: USN Battleships
Ship Class/Name Type Slot Comissioned IRL PAC Stock Date CHS155 Date CHSNEW Date RHSCVO Date RHSBBO Date
Iowa: Iowa BB 182 22-Feb-43 YES 15-Jan-44 7-Jan-44 7-Jan-44 7-Jan-44 7-Jan-44
Iowa: New Jersey BB 182 23-May-43 YES 15-Jan-44 7-Jan-44 7-Jan-44 7-Jan-44 7-Jan-44
Iowa: Missouri BB 182 11-Jun-44 YES 15-Nov-44 30-Sep-44 18-Sep-44 14-Dec-44 14-Dec-44
Iowa: Wisconsin BB 182 16-Apr-44 YES 15-Dec-44 30-Sep-44 18-Sep-44 2-Oct-44 2-Oct-44
Iowa: Illinois BB 182 1-Sep-45 YES NA NA NA NA 1-Sep-45
Iowa: Kentucky BB 182 8-Sep-45 YES NA NA NA NA 8-Sep-45
S Dakota: South Dakota BB 181 20-Mar-42 YES 15-Sep-42 20-Aug-42 20-Aug-42 21-Aug-42 21-Aug-42
S Dakota: Indiana BB 180 30-Apr-42 YES 15-Nov-42 14-Nov-42 2-Jun-42 14-Nov-42 14-Nov-42
S Dakota: Massachusetts BB 180 12-May-42 YES 15-Mar-43 25-Aug-43 25-Aug-43 15-Feb-43 15-Feb-43
S Dakota: Alabama BB 1206 16-Aug-42 YES 15-Sep-43 25-Aug-43 25-Aug-43 25-Aug-43 25-Aug-43
N Carolina: North Carolina BB 1201 9-Apr-41 YES 15-Jun-42 10-Jun-42 10-Jun-42 10-Jun-42 10-Jun-42
N Carolina: Washington BB 1201 15-May-41 YES 15-Sep-42 28-Aug-42 28-Aug-42 28-Aug-42 28-Aug-42
Colorado: Colorado BB 178 30-Aug-23 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Colorado: Maryland BB 178 21-Jul-21 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Colorado: Washington BB 178 NA NO NA NA NA NA NA
W Virginia: West Virginia BB 177 1-Dec-23 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Tennessee: Tennessee BB 176 3-Jun-20 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Tennessee: California BB 176 10-Aug-21 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
New Mexico: New Mexico BB 175 23-Apr-17 YES 22-Jan-42 18-Jan-42 18-Jan-42 22-Jan-42 22-Jan-42
New Mexico: Idaho BB 175 30-Jun-17 YES 15-Apr-42 24-Jan-42 1-Jan-42 31-Jan-42 31-Jan-42
New Mexico: Mississippi BB 175 18-Dec-17 YES 22-Jan-42 18-Jan-42 18-Jan-42 22-Jan-42 22-Jan-42
Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania BB 174 12-Jun-16 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Pennsylvania: Arizona BB 174 17-Oct-16 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Nevada: Nevada BB 173 11-Mar-16 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
Nevada: Oklahoma BB 173 2-May-16 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41
New York: New York BB 172 15-Apr-14 YES 10-Jan-45 26-Nov-44 26-Nov-44 26-Nov-44 26-Nov-44
New York: Texas BB 172 12-Mar-14 YES 5-May-45 5-Dec-44 5-Dec-44 5-Dec-44 5-Dec-44
Wyoming: Wyoming BB 171 25-Sep-12 NO NA NA NA NA 15-Jan-43
Wyoming: Arkansas BB 171 17-Sep-12 YES 1-Jan-45 22-Nov-44 22-Nov-44 22-Nov-44 22-Nov-44
Utah AG 438 31-Aug-11 YES 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41 6-Dec-41

Ship Class/Name Type Slot PTO Historical IRL PAC Stock Date CHS155 Date CHSNEW Date RHSCVO Date RHSBBO Date
December 1941 PTO Total BB NA 10 YES 10 10 10 10 10
1942 PTO Arrival BB NA 6 YES 7 7 7 6 6
1943 PTO Arrival BB NA 3 YES 2 2 2 3 4
1944 PTO Arrival BB NA 7 YES 4 7 7 7 7
1945 PTO Arrival BB NA 0 YES 3 0 0 0 2
War PTO Grand Total BB NA 26 YES 26 26 26 26 29

Primary Source: Conways All the World's Fighting Ships 1906-1921 & 1922-1946
Secondary Source: Battleships: United States Battleships in World War II
Tirtiary Source: Jane's Fighting Ships, 1939 & 1946
Quartranary Source: US Warships of World War II
Pentranary Source: Schlachtshiffe und Schlachtkreuzer, 1905-1970, 3rd Edition.


Start Location Ship Class/Name Notes
Panama City Iowa: Iowa
Panama City Iowa: New Jersey
San Francisco Iowa: Missouri
San Francisco Iowa: Wisconsin
Panama City Iowa: Illinois
Panama City Iowa: Kentucky
Panama City S Dakota: South Dakota
Panama City S Dakota: Indiana
Panama City S Dakota: Massachusetts
Panama City S Dakota: Alabama
Panama City N Carolina: North Carolina
Panama City N Carolina: Washington
Seattle Colorado: Colorado
Pearl Harbor Colorado: Maryland
NA Colorado: Washington Cancelled by Washington Treaty. Launched 1-Sep-21. Sunk in test 25-Nov-24.
Pearl Harbor W Virginia: West Virginia
Pearl Harbor Tennessee: Tennessee
Pearl Harbor Tennessee: California
San Francisco New Mexico: New Mexico Departed San Francisco 1-Aug-42 for Pearl Harbor.
San Francisco New Mexico: Idaho
San Francisco New Mexico: Mississippi
Pearl Harbor Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania
Pearl Harbor Pennsylvania: Arizona Lost 7-Dec-41 at Pearl Harbor.
Pearl Harbor Nevada: Nevada
Pearl Harbor Nevada: Oklahoma Fatal damage 7-Dec-41 at Pearl Harbor: never repaired.
Panama City New York: New York
Panama City New York: Texas
Panama City Wyoming: Wyoming Considered for rearming during WWII.
Panama City Wyoming: Arkansas
Pearl Harbor Utah Converted to gunnery training auxiliary ship. Fatal damage 7-Dec-41 at Pearl Harbor: never repaired.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Iowa: Iowa arriving in 1942?

[akdreemer]

Okay, some questions:

South Dakota arrival?
20Mar42...That is the date of her commissioning. Seems kinda hard for a ship that is commissioned in New Jersey to be simultaneously available in the Pacific? And with a green crew and no shake down period...

Massachusetts
Looks like the date need corrected in CHS, one of my mistakes it seems..

Alabama
Assigned to the British Home fleet till August 1943. Now I know where the South Dakota mistake was. First, the DANFS Alabama entry states that the South Dakota had accompanied her. Really stupid of me for forgetting that the S. Dakota was heavily involved in the Guadalcanal Campaigns. Mistake two was was not independently verifying the Dictionary of American Fighting Ships entry by looking at the South Dakota one.

[el cid again]

Iowa arrived in 1944 - same date - wrong year. Fixed. See above.

[el cid again]

South Dakota arrival?
20Mar42...

The South Dakota commended her first Pacific war cruise in August 1942.
15 Aug unless we get a port and departure date.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

South Dakota arrival?
20Mar42...

The South Dakota commended her first Pacific war cruise in August 1942.
15 Aug unless we get a port and departure date.

Got mixed up in the post. Every ship that arrives from the east coast transits the Panama Canal. Majority of major combatants that arrived to the West Coast from the Canal stop in San Diego before traveling on. Having any east coast ship automatically arrive at SF is rediculous as many of them went directly to their assigned theatre and especially since most of the data has been already been compiled.

The ship reinforcments in CHS Extended Map were predicated on their arrival time in Panama City,with a 6 to 7 day adjustment as necessary when actual transit dates were unknown. It is all there for you use, it took me quite a few evenings to compile. I managed to finish the DE's. I will send you my workbook if u like..

[Monter_Trismegistos]

S Dakota: Indiana BB 174 30-Apr-41 YES 15-Nov-42 14-Nov-42 14-Nov-42 15-Apr-43 15-Apr-43

From DANFS:

Indiana (BB-58) was launched by Newport News Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co., Newport News, Va., 21 November 1941; sponsored by Mrs. Lewis C. Robbins, daughter of Indiana governor Henry F. Schricker; and commissioned 30 April 1942, Captain A. A. Merrill in command.
Following shakedown in Casco Bay, Maine, the new battleship steamed through the Panama Canal to bolster. U.S. fleet units in the Pacific during the critical early months of World War II. She joined Rear Admiral Lee's carrier screening force 28 Novembe r 1942. For the next 11 months, Indiana helped protect carriers Enterprise and Saratoga, then supporting American advances in the Solomons.

[el cid again]

Got mixed up in the post. Every ship that arrives from the east coast transits the Panama Canal. Majority of major combatants that arrived to the West Coast from the Canal stop in San Diego before traveling on. Having any east coast ship automatically arrive at SF is rediculous as many of them went directly to their assigned theatre and especially since most of the data has been already been compiled.

The ship reinforcments in CHS Extended Map were predicated on their arrival time in Panama City,with a 6 to 7 day adjustment as necessary when actual transit dates were unknown. It is all there for you use, it took me quite a few evenings to compile. I managed to finish the DE's. I will send you my workbook if u like..

I use a different criteria: when did the ship get assigned to operations in PTO? I have reviewed and posted new data for US carriers - and the US loses an Essex because of it - she went to England in 1945 - not PTO! A few dates are different. And many indeed depart San Diego - some Panama - and some also San Francisco. As in history. Will check the battleships.

[el cid again]

While it is not clear when Indiana transited the Canal, this can be reasonably estimated by transit time to Noumea - so this has been done.

[el cid again]

Got mixed up in the post. Every ship that arrives from the east coast transits the Panama Canal. Majority of major combatants that arrived to the West Coast from the Canal stop in San Diego before traveling on. Having any east coast ship automatically arrive at SF is rediculous as many of them went directly to their assigned theatre and especially since most of the data has been already been compiled.

Turns out this is incorrect. I reviewed all the capital ships and REPOSTED above. It turns out that San Francisco was the alternate fleet base for battleships, and that in fact all 3 of the Colorado's went there early in 1942. Also two of the Iowas went there to fit out. Many did depart Panama directly for PTO forward bases. In a few cases (e.g. Indiana) the Dictionary of Naval Fighting Ships does not give an actual entry date for the theater, but it can reasonably be estimated.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
While it is not clear when Indiana transited the Canal, this can be reasonably estimated by transit time to Noumea - so this has been done.

So, your estimated tansit time would be a negative value -4 months?
Your date of arrival was Apr 43, now you moved it even more forward to Jun 43... So, as I understand it that you are assuming DANFS is wrong and Indiana wasnt operating at Pacific in Nov 42?

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Got mixed up in the post. Every ship that arrives from the east coast transits the Panama Canal. Majority of major combatants that arrived to the West Coast from the Canal stop in San Diego before traveling on. Having any east coast ship automatically arrive at SF is rediculous as many of them went directly to their assigned theatre and especially since most of the data has been already been compiled.

Turns out this is incorrect. I reviewed all the capital ships and REPOSTED above. It turns out that San Francisco was the alternate fleet base for battleships, and that in fact all 3 of the Colorado's went there early in 1942. Also two of the Iowas went there to fit out. Many did depart Panama directly for PTO forward bases. In a few cases (e.g. Indiana) the Dictionary of Naval Fighting Ships does not give an actual entry date for the theater, but it can reasonably be estimated.

Okay, I can see we are talking past each other here. The concept is as follows. First, all ships transiting the canal should appear there. This will allow THE PLAYERS to decide where they want them to go. I do not dispute that Mare Island was the alternate BB historically, but why should it be in the game, as you are fond of pointing out. For instance, historically San Diego was the Pacific Fleet base before it moved to Pearl Harbor and the Battleships were based at San Pedro.

Second, having pieced together the transit routes of most of the arriving ships from the east coast to the west coast, I was able to determine that San Diego was the first port of call before the ships went to their final destinations. No where did I state they were based there. Since San Diego was the primary training base for the West Coast, quite a few of the West Coast built vessels also ended up there.

Third, for the purpose of initial, or reinforcement, ship locations, CHS has a solid foundation. Although there are a few errors that need corrected, this is a relatively minor problem, and much work still needs to be done for merchant vessels. The locations were based primarily, but not exclusively, on data from DANFS. The decision was made that in the extended map ship reinforcements should appear at Panama City if they arrived from the East Coast. Travel times were extrapolated for events like the Panama Canal transit (usually 6-7 days from the east coast). For West Coast units ships arrived where they began their first assignment. For instance, many of the CVE's would depart from San Diego because this is where they embarked their air group. DD, DE and such would arrived where they began their first non-training mission. For the non-extended map versions San Diego was chosen as the initial starting point from arriving east coast ships as applicable for the same reasons I mentioned above.

You will of course choose to do this anyway you wish, as you have stated on many occassions. However, the above is what CHS is attempting to simulate while allowing maximum player flexibility.

[m10bob]

You two are both creative genius's and we need to bring peace here..

Start sifting through this stuff and come to a compromise.[:D]

http://www.ww2pacific.com/battleships.html

This next comes right from the freakin' USN, fer cryin' out loud!!:[8D]

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/shi ... list1.html


Some don't know the IOWA's were built with the beam limitation of having to pass thru the canal. Otherwise, it may have been larger than the Yamato!:
http://www.angelfire.com/super2/panama/ ... s_way.html

Two BB's at the same time!:

http://www.angelfire.com/super2/panama/ ... anama.html

Measurements of the locks and the beam of the Iowa's only left 6"s on either side!:

http://www.angelfire.com/super2/panama/battleships.html


USN info for the flattops!:

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/shi ... list1.html

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Some don't know the IOWA's were built with the beam limitation of having to pass thru the canal. Otherwise, it may have been larger than the Yamato

Maybe they would be bigger but not as big as Yamato. Next class of BBs (Montana) was wider than panamamax, but still smaller than Yamato.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Some don't know the IOWA's were built with the beam limitation of having to pass thru the canal. Otherwise, it may have been larger than the Yamato

Maybe they would be bigger but not as big as Yamato. Next class of BBs (Montana) was wider than panamamax, but still smaller than Yamato.

Thank you Monter..When dealing with "what ifs", its' always hard to pin point a fact..[:D]

[el cid again]

Okay, I can see we are talking past each other here. The concept is as follows. First, all ships transiting the canal should appear there. This will allow THE PLAYERS to decide where they want them to go. I do not dispute that Mare Island was the alternate BB historically, but why should it be in the game, as you are fond of pointing out. For instance, historically San Diego was the Pacific Fleet base before it moved to Pearl Harbor and the Battleships were based at San Pedro.

Second, having pieced together the transit routes of most of the arriving ships from the east coast to the west coast, I was able to determine that San Diego was the first port of call before the ships went to their final destinations. No where did I state they were based there. Since San Diego was the primary training base for the West Coast, quite a few of the West Coast built vessels also ended up there.

I sort of get it. We are using different standards. Lacking specific data, we do not know exactly why a ship went where? As a real world USN sailor, I know there are often sound reasons for what is done. IF we were going to allow players to decide - just let them send every ship the day after commissioning - if only for "transport duty" - and calculate transit time (if any) to the map edge. Because, surely, that is what players would decide! Since we are limiting the Allies to forces in theater from the first entry (we don't make them leave the theater even if they did - which results in a war cumulative total a bit lopsided - if you believe our fiction EVERY USN battleship was in the Pacific and NONE in any other theater - eventually!). Also, often the departure date for PTO from a US port is given. So this is what I use - the LAST departure date - or the transit date for the Canal if it went directly to Pearl or some other theater destination - is my standard. Where the departure is Gulf or East coast without a transit date for Panama, I add five days.

And I found many errors in the dates in CHS - even ships in theater before they commission. But it is clearly better than stock - and the data base is so huge I have no hope of correcting all the errors (even looking at them) date wise for minor vessels.

Anyway, an experienced editor user like you surely could change the date of entry of USS EXTRA if you didn't like it! There is no lock on the editing I am doing.

[el cid again]

Some don't know the IOWA's were built with the beam limitation of having to pass thru the canal. Otherwise, it may have been larger than the Yamato!:

This is true - at least the part about being limited by transit of the Canal considerations. They would in no case have been bigger than the Yamato.
But there WAS a huge US battleship design - ended by the London Naval Treaty - which contemplated fifteen 18 inch guns! - and it probably would have been bigger - although STILL able to pass Panama! I believe US carriers should still have this limitation - and I oppose the 110,000 ton ships now contemplated (for 50 planes - smaller than the F-14 - which could operate on much smaller ships).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
While it is not clear when Indiana transited the Canal, this can be reasonably estimated by transit time to Noumea - so this has been done.


So, your estimated tansit time would be a negative value -4 months?
Your date of arrival was Apr 43, now you moved it even more forward to Jun 43... So, as I understand it that you are assuming DANFS is wrong and Indiana wasnt operating at Pacific in Nov 42?

No - my estimate is 7 Nov 42 - allowing three weeks to transit to Noumea. Do not ask how it appeared otherwise in the table - I must have been tired. It is corrected above. I still have no actual transit date, but I do know the approximate transit time, and I accept arrival Noumea as of 28 November, which is given.

[m10bob]

This site has fairly decent info, to include that of the jeep flattops, and gives the squadron info based on them!!!!!



http://navysite.de/ships.htm

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: el cid again
While it is not clear when Indiana transited the Canal, this can be reasonably estimated by transit time to Noumea - so this has been done.


So, your estimated tansit time would be a negative value -4 months?
Your date of arrival was Apr 43, now you moved it even more forward to Jun 43... So, as I understand it that you are assuming DANFS is wrong and Indiana wasnt operating at Pacific in Nov 42?

No - my estimate is 7 Nov 42 - allowing three weeks to transit to Noumea. Do not ask how it appeared otherwise in the table - I must have been tired. It is corrected above. I still have no actual transit date, but I do know the approximate transit time, and I accept arrival Noumea as of 28 November, which is given.

try this:

"Fully laden with ammunition and supplies, USS INDIANA churned out of Hampton Roads, Virginia on 9 November 1942 enroute to Tongatabu Island via the Panama Canal."

Makes an arrival time at Balboa about the 16 nov 42.

source:
http://ussindianabb58.com/history.html

Since you do not use the internet as a source then you will probably not use this date, but it is good enough for me.