WiTP: Returned to Sender

[Odox]

Gentlemen:

For about the last six weeks I've been considering purchasing WiTP. Today it's finally arrived in the mail.

Be fair to me boys, I was teethed on the old Avalon Hill games as a teenager back in the '60s and I've been at this awhile, and I've always hoped for a great WWII Pacific game/simulation. Yet after having read what must be over a few thousand posts in this (and other) forums, I'm sending the game back.

Critiques IMHO should be as fair and balanced as possible, and I always seek to be constructive about them so the developers and others can take these issues to heart.

I have three reasons for returning the game; namely the bugginess and irregularities of such things as ground and large air combat (among others), the absence of much attention to the political options of the various sides (admittedly a personal reason), and the knowledge that a WiTP II is planned and two new developers have been taken on board.

Again to be fair, WiTP initially attracted alot of attention and has retained most of it, and rightfully so. And having read so many of the posts of so many devoted fans of the game, I have come to respect both the game and those that are playing it.

A game of this size and detail is a massive undertaking and my hat is off to it's creators. But invariably such a game as this can fall prey to bugginess and irregularity simply because of the enormity of the effort; and in my opinion this is exactly what has occurred with WiTP. Sure, just about all games of this type have some errata, addenda, patches and fixes, and they come as no surprise. It just seems the calls for corrections and clarifications are unceasing for this particular issue/edition of the game. I am personally discouraged by a game that calls for endless patching. It bespeaks substandard QC.

Furthermore, it appears Matrix is going to "MicroSoft it" by allowing the older version to fade away by nonsupport and simply introduce a (probably much cleaner) new version in WiTP II. It's a perfectly understandable decision from both a business and a practical standpoint. Tear the thing down and clean it up, like was done to all the Unix code by openBSD. Come up with a more powerful and integrated file system (like MS did in NTFS to replace the old FAT/FAT32). Charge me a few hundred for the finished product if you like. But make it work. Smoothly.

I'd be happy to make a few suggestions (like as to the political options I mentioned above), but you have plenty already, and from many others probably alot more qualified to make them.

Just for once, I'd like to see a developer take the time to make a real work of art. I think (and many here would agree) that WiTP is a huge step in that direction. No question about it. It's already among a very rare class of simulation/game in that respect. Now don't just take it to the next level. OWN the next level. From what I've seen from both the quality and loyalty of your fanbase, you owe it to them and to yourselves.

It's just too bad the only way I can get this point across is by refusing to purchase the current product.

Respectfully submitted,

Odox

[JeffroK]

Odox,

WITP is a great game.

And far more accurate and with less arrata than anything AH, SPI etc ever put out.

Is it perfect, well at the scale they are using it can never be 100%, its probably at 99%

As for bugs, many are exaggerated or are on games that have been continuously modded & patched.

I paid AUS$70 for it, well worth every sheckel.

[dpstafford]

ORIGINAL: Odox
For about the last six weeks I've been considering purchasing WiTP. Today it's finally arrived in the mail.

I don't think Matrix takes returns.......[X(]

[ny59giants]

I also started on Avalon Hill games and ended up with a collection of over three trunks worth of SPI games by the end of the 70's when I was in the US Navy. I now have many games that deal with the land combat in Europe for WW2. I got WitP in 1/05 and have played this game 95% or more since then. It still has bugs and probably will always have a few bugs, even after the next patch (1.8). If you wait for WitPII, what guarantee do you think that it comes out in perfect form without any bugs??
This game is for entertainment purposes and hopefully not to have every variable of the complex war figured out. I see an attempt to balance a game that is both tactical and strategic at the same time.
My question is, "Is there a better game out there that covers the Pacific War any better than this one?" NO, as far as I know. I know it will get better, but never be perfect. I accept it.

[alfrake]

ORIGINAL: Odox
I have three reasons for returning the game;
namely the bugginess and irregularities of such things as ground and large air combat (among others)

Annoying perhaps, but not very buggy. The bugs I've seen don't happen in combat.

ORIGINAL: Odox
the absence of much attention to the political options of the various sides (admittedly a personal reason)

If that was critical to you, you shouldn't have seriously look at WitP. Its a WARgame. The political points are secondary. It is not a simulation.

ORIGINAL: Odox
and the knowledge that a WiTP II is planned and two new developers have been taken on board.

Okay, here I have to agree with you. I consider plans for WitP II a major negative on the company. They haven't finished the first game correctly yet are making a second one. I certainly won't buy it unless the original improves noticably first. Mainly because if they can't fix the first one I have no reason to believe the second one will be better. Most sequels go downhill.

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: alfrake

/snip

ORIGINAL: Odox
and the knowledge that a WiTP II is planned and two new developers have been taken on board.

Okay, here I have to agree with you. I consider plans for WitP II a major negative on the company. They haven't finished the first game correctly yet are making a second one. I certainly won't buy it unless the original improves noticably first. Mainly because if they can't fix the first one I have no reason to believe the second one will be better. Most sequels go downhill.

This is from Matrix's first post:

The initial task for this Team will be to help finish the 1.8 patch, which will include everything currently in the 1.7.9.5 Beta but with both the disappearing leader and disappearing unit bugs, corrected God willing. I am sure Joe and Don will add a few goodies as well. When the patch is completed, depending on interest we will consider doing a possible WITP Enhancement Pack, or at some point even a new WITP II game. Please give these guys some time to go over everything and get up to speed on it.

As you can see, WITP II is not a project but a possible project in the future.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Nomad
As you can see, WITP II is not a project but a possible project in the future.

And just when as anyone here ever let facts get in the way of a good rant? [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.

[MarcA]

Personally I think witp is a great game, bugs and all and the more I play it the more I like it. I would be surprised if I have spent less than 600 hours on the game which, at £60, makes it fantastic value for money.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Nomad
As you can see, WITP II is not a project but a possible project in the future.

And just when as anyone here ever let facts get in the way of a good rant? [:D]

This was funny...

[niceguy2005]

Hi Odox,

Im sorry to see a possible member of the community disappear. On some levels I suppose I share your sentiments. However, I would suggest that if the forum is the basis for your decision, your receiving a skewed point of view. If you will notice, despite the rants of some on this forum about WitP, they're still playing it. The reason: its a pretty darn good game. Here are some things to consider:

1. WitP II is only the inkling of a hint of a thought about a possible idea. Don't buy everyones enthusiasm around here about it. Even if they decide to go forward with it your looking at what, maybe 2-3 years of development, maybe more.

2. There are bugs in the game, but not everyone experiences them all, or to the degree that others have. the ONLY bugs I have experienced to any extent have been the combat replay bug and the transport bug. Both I have learned to work around quite effectively - note to Matrix I still expect these things fixed in the future. I have not once experienced the teleportation bug or the leader bug.

3. As to the correctness of the combat resolution, every monkeys uncle has an opinion on what that should be and no two opinions are the same. We love to debate the results all day long because we have no life, but combat is incredibly difficult to model and to a first order approximation WitP isn't too bad.

BOTTOM LINE, if you love this genre of games you owe it to yourself to keep WitP, spend the time to learn the game, learn the work arounds for the bugs you will encounter, join the community and have fun, because WitP is still the best Pacific theater WWII game out there and will be for some time to come. [:)]

BTW, Matrix, you can send the check care of Niceguy at PO box....[;)]

[Mynok]

It's just too bad the only way I can get this point across is by refusing to purchase the current product.

Yeah, and you could have done that without buying then returning the game, having never played it. [8|]

I smell a load of horse hockey........

[rtrapasso]

I smell a load of horse hockey........

BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic![:'(]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

I smell a load of horse hockey........

BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic![:'(]

[:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

I smell a load of horse hockey........

BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic![:'(]

just too bad

lol....its an excuse used by our favorite troll who's only been hanging around here for what.....3 years now and still hasn't played the game because it's "flawed". Yet he keeps coming back. hmmmm Better sign me up for a seat on That's My Cynic! too. [:'(]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

I smell a load of horse hockey........

BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic![:'(]

just too bad

lol....its an excuse used by our favorite troll who's only been hanging around here for what.....3 years now and still hasn't played the game because it's "flawed". Yet he keeps coming back. hmmmm Better sign me up for a seat on That's My Cynic! too. [:'(]

Eh? i thought you were the host!![X(][:'(]

[Nikademus]

lol....you know, i would make a good host. I really really want to believe that there's more to this world than the bland view we see every day (why else a desire to play fantasy RPG's??)

yet at heart i'm also a cynic and everytime someone claims to be psychic or able to do "magic" my first thought is always "yeah right....."

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lol....you know, i would make a good host. I really really want to believe that there's more to this world than the bland view we see every day (why else a desire to play fantasy RPG's??)

yet at heart i'm also a cynic and everytime someone claims to be psychic or able to do "magic" my first thought is always "yeah right....."

The Truth Is Out There. [:)]

[Mynok]

The Truth Is Out There.

And I don't believe it! [:D]

[Terminus]

Aaah, X-Files... Those were the days...