I dont like Mac.
I think he set our war effort BACK at least
eighteen months.
He had all the disadvantages of Patton
without the compensating skill.
He was no more than passable. He had ONE virtue that wasnt always a virtue. He could be VERY stubborn. His tenure at West Point was downright scary (talking about him running the place now)
His tenure at the JCS was equally scary.
Only the extreme small size of the Army saved us from gross abuses.
YES he was first in his class and YES he graduated with honors. I say BFD. That just proves
EXACTLY what summa cum lade means. (ie NOTHING)
It is the aristos patting themselves on their own
backs that the hoops have been jumped thru.
It is time that we all stop paying for such conceit.
Sorry I am in a very bad mood.
MacAurthur
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
MacAurthur
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
I dont like Mac either. For all the reasons mentioned and a couple more I'd like to throw in.
- As JCS he was ultimately responsible for the army attacking, bashing and in some cases killing the protesting disaffected WW1 veterans at washington during the depression (dont quote me on the city).
- he was directly responsible for the australian army mounting totally needless campaigns in 1945 which resulted in thousands of dead and injured Australians.
He did have good points, put these two that I have mentioned really get my blood boiling.
- As JCS he was ultimately responsible for the army attacking, bashing and in some cases killing the protesting disaffected WW1 veterans at washington during the depression (dont quote me on the city).
- he was directly responsible for the australian army mounting totally needless campaigns in 1945 which resulted in thousands of dead and injured Australians.
He did have good points, put these two that I have mentioned really get my blood boiling.
In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
Yeah, he was grossly incompetent. He had 10 years to work on the Phillipine defenses. He lived like a king the entire time he was there. Yet when the Japanese invaded he managed to lose the whole shebang to a numerically inferrior invasion force, and to add insult to injury he left his men there to die.
The only reason he wasn't relieved and court martialed were his political connections back home, he had good press. In addition, for most of the war, he had to keep a bodyguard force with him to protect him from assasination from his own troops.
He was a Prima Dona, like Patton, but Patton delivered, Mac never did.
The general histories taught in schools get his "deeds" completely wrong. Of course why muddy the waters with facts...
The only reason he wasn't relieved and court martialed were his political connections back home, he had good press. In addition, for most of the war, he had to keep a bodyguard force with him to protect him from assasination from his own troops.
He was a Prima Dona, like Patton, but Patton delivered, Mac never did.
The general histories taught in schools get his "deeds" completely wrong. Of course why muddy the waters with facts...
" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"
Clan [GOAT]
Clan [GOAT]
Mac was like an american Montgomery, only worse, because while Monty (whom I'm not really fond of either) took pains to reduce the losses in his own armies while still delivering victories. Mac couldn't even deliver victories without overwhelming advantage and had no concern for his own soldiers lives.
Inchon was a fine stroke, but he more than made up for that with his careless disregard for the reality of the situation with China.
And to be fair, Monty was right in trying to keep losses down in his British and Canadian armies, The British Army was nearly out of infantry replacements by late 1944.
Inchon was a fine stroke, but he more than made up for that with his careless disregard for the reality of the situation with China.
And to be fair, Monty was right in trying to keep losses down in his British and Canadian armies, The British Army was nearly out of infantry replacements by late 1944.
Still playing PacWar (but no so much anymore)...
To quote Shakespeare:
"For the evil that men do lives after them, but the good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Caesar." - Mark Antony in "Julius Caesar"
You guys need to read a good biography of both MacArthur and Patton.
After some initial bloody battles, MacArthur strove to reduce casualties. In two years of fighting in the Pacific, his command suffered 25,000 casualties. In comparison, in one month in Normandy, the Americans suffered 40,000 casualties.
MacArthur was eventually revered by his former foes, the Japanese, even to the extent of wanting him to be their first President.
Was MacArthur arrogant? Probably. Was he personnally liked. Probably not. Did he make mistakes? Of course. But look at what he accomplished.
If I'm going into battle, I do not want to be led by an officer or a General suffering from an inferiority complex.
At the out-break of WWII in the Pacific ALL theatre commands (Pearl Harbour, Phillipines, Singapore, etc, etc) were surprised by what the Japanese did.
MacArthur was lied to by Washington when his troops were defending the Phillipines. Washington knowingly lied to the General when it promised him reinforcements. When the truth finally dawned on him of the truth of his situation, MacArthur was prepared to resign from the US army and fight on AND DIE as a private soldier.
Only when Australia was threatened and demanded the recall of Australian troops from the Mid-East, did Washington ORDER MacArthur to leave the Phillipines and assume command of the defence of Australia.
To quote Patton:
"I don't want my men to love me; I want them to FIGHT for me."
Even so, he did love his men. He was buried at the head of the fallen troops of Third Army: still leading them, still watching over them, even in death. . .
Patton was the only Allied Officer the Germans feared. . .
These men were pure warriors. The personal bravery of both Patton and MacArthur is without refute. The only thing they knew was: If you go to war, you fight to win.
A little of this thinking could have been used in Vietnam and the Gulf War.
Cheers <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Von Rom ]</p>
"For the evil that men do lives after them, but the good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Caesar." - Mark Antony in "Julius Caesar"
You guys need to read a good biography of both MacArthur and Patton.
After some initial bloody battles, MacArthur strove to reduce casualties. In two years of fighting in the Pacific, his command suffered 25,000 casualties. In comparison, in one month in Normandy, the Americans suffered 40,000 casualties.
MacArthur was eventually revered by his former foes, the Japanese, even to the extent of wanting him to be their first President.
Was MacArthur arrogant? Probably. Was he personnally liked. Probably not. Did he make mistakes? Of course. But look at what he accomplished.
If I'm going into battle, I do not want to be led by an officer or a General suffering from an inferiority complex.
At the out-break of WWII in the Pacific ALL theatre commands (Pearl Harbour, Phillipines, Singapore, etc, etc) were surprised by what the Japanese did.
MacArthur was lied to by Washington when his troops were defending the Phillipines. Washington knowingly lied to the General when it promised him reinforcements. When the truth finally dawned on him of the truth of his situation, MacArthur was prepared to resign from the US army and fight on AND DIE as a private soldier.
Only when Australia was threatened and demanded the recall of Australian troops from the Mid-East, did Washington ORDER MacArthur to leave the Phillipines and assume command of the defence of Australia.
To quote Patton:
"I don't want my men to love me; I want them to FIGHT for me."
Even so, he did love his men. He was buried at the head of the fallen troops of Third Army: still leading them, still watching over them, even in death. . .
Patton was the only Allied Officer the Germans feared. . .
These men were pure warriors. The personal bravery of both Patton and MacArthur is without refute. The only thing they knew was: If you go to war, you fight to win.
A little of this thinking could have been used in Vietnam and the Gulf War.
Cheers <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Von Rom ]</p>
I have. Start with 'American Caesar'
Then John Toland
Then Morrison
I think quoting casualties to prove a point is silly. Let cut to peacetime when he headed the JSC. How about him hopnobing with Huey Long?
Without the Hearst press backing him up,
Roosevelt would have fired him. King detested him.
He was also insubordinate, which the USA doesnt like in their commanders. Sure he was lied to
in the PI yep absolutely true. That says nothing
at all about him. It does say something about FDR.
Then John Toland
Then Morrison
I think quoting casualties to prove a point is silly. Let cut to peacetime when he headed the JSC. How about him hopnobing with Huey Long?
Without the Hearst press backing him up,
Roosevelt would have fired him. King detested him.
He was also insubordinate, which the USA doesnt like in their commanders. Sure he was lied to
in the PI yep absolutely true. That says nothing
at all about him. It does say something about FDR.
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Chiteng:
Quoting casualty lists is silly? Maybe the men who fought and died would think differently about that, hmm?
MacArthur felt that only mediocre commanders turned in high casualty rates; he wanted to achieve his objectives with the least loss of life possible.
You mention that Roosevelt and King detested him. What does that say about them?
Roosevelt lied to MacArthur in the Phillipines, and Washington essentially wrote off the Americans and Filipinos fighting and dying in the jungle there. Yet MacArthur felt it was America's DUTY to defend the brave Phillipine nation. What does that say about his character. . .
crusher:
MacArthur did not do anything that was not mandated by the UN. Remember, it wasn't America's war (although it bore the greatest burden). It was the UN that sactioned both the intervention in Korea and the pursuit to the Yalu. The intention was to liberate ALL of Korea. MacArthur was trying to fulfill that mandate the best way he knew how.
When the Chinese did intervene, MacArthur was not permitted to bomb the Yalu, the bridges spanning the Yalu, the staging areas where the Chinese troops were gathering, nor even the bases from which the Chinese were flying their Migs. He complained bitterly that he was not permitted to use the weapons available to him that would slow down the Chinese and save American and UN soldier's lives.
I admire your dad's devotion to duty and his part in the war, but what he and so many other soldiers suffered could have been alleviated in great part by massive B-52 bombing raids. . .
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Von Rom ]</p>
Quoting casualty lists is silly? Maybe the men who fought and died would think differently about that, hmm?
MacArthur felt that only mediocre commanders turned in high casualty rates; he wanted to achieve his objectives with the least loss of life possible.
You mention that Roosevelt and King detested him. What does that say about them?
Roosevelt lied to MacArthur in the Phillipines, and Washington essentially wrote off the Americans and Filipinos fighting and dying in the jungle there. Yet MacArthur felt it was America's DUTY to defend the brave Phillipine nation. What does that say about his character. . .
crusher:
MacArthur did not do anything that was not mandated by the UN. Remember, it wasn't America's war (although it bore the greatest burden). It was the UN that sactioned both the intervention in Korea and the pursuit to the Yalu. The intention was to liberate ALL of Korea. MacArthur was trying to fulfill that mandate the best way he knew how.
When the Chinese did intervene, MacArthur was not permitted to bomb the Yalu, the bridges spanning the Yalu, the staging areas where the Chinese troops were gathering, nor even the bases from which the Chinese were flying their Migs. He complained bitterly that he was not permitted to use the weapons available to him that would slow down the Chinese and save American and UN soldier's lives.
I admire your dad's devotion to duty and his part in the war, but what he and so many other soldiers suffered could have been alleviated in great part by massive B-52 bombing raids. . .
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Von Rom ]</p>
Any lieutenant can stand at the head of his troops
and become a martyr. That may or may NOT be courage. It could be he wanted to be a martyr.
Mac was a three star general, holding not one but
TWO commisions. No one forced him to take them.
If you hold a commision you had better damn well do what the prez says. Disagreement is a luxury.
The ultimate protest is to simply resign. He didnt.
and become a martyr. That may or may NOT be courage. It could be he wanted to be a martyr.
Mac was a three star general, holding not one but
TWO commisions. No one forced him to take them.
If you hold a commision you had better damn well do what the prez says. Disagreement is a luxury.
The ultimate protest is to simply resign. He didnt.
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Does Mac sending the army in to murder the protesting WW1 vets (your own men for gods sake) mean nothing to you people (and if you dont know what Im talking about, go read your own history books).
In my books for that alone he should be written off as a callous prick whose greatest priority in life was his own political standing.
In my books for that alone he should be written off as a callous prick whose greatest priority in life was his own political standing.
In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
Sure Stubby, the Wobblies (I think)
mached ob Washington DC in 1932.(again I think)
Mac fired on the crowd, doing his best imitation
of Napoleon. But without the talent.
The men were indigent and dying of starvation
the Gov owed them pensions. The idea that they
would die of starvation before they ever got the pensions made the kinda angry.
mached ob Washington DC in 1932.(again I think)
Mac fired on the crowd, doing his best imitation
of Napoleon. But without the talent.
The men were indigent and dying of starvation
the Gov owed them pensions. The idea that they
would die of starvation before they ever got the pensions made the kinda angry.
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
The army was also called the "bonus army" after their objective, the promised bonus from washington that was reneged on.
I'll admit that Mac was ordered by the President to leave the Phillipines in March 1942., but that cannot and will not excuse him from gewtting caught with his entire air force on the ground 10 hours after the PH raid. The Japanese commanders were actually expecting a US raid when they were enveloped with bad weather on formosa, but the USAAF in the Phillipines under Mac's command failed miserably to account for itself.
In Korea Mac badly underestimated the real and potential problems that he caused and then later did not have the will to fight. He astually implored the President to use atomic bombs against the Chinese units in the field. That would have started a global nuclear war in 1950 and we might have still been in the middle it if now, only without our comfortable living room computers to discuss the past.
I'll admit that Mac was ordered by the President to leave the Phillipines in March 1942., but that cannot and will not excuse him from gewtting caught with his entire air force on the ground 10 hours after the PH raid. The Japanese commanders were actually expecting a US raid when they were enveloped with bad weather on formosa, but the USAAF in the Phillipines under Mac's command failed miserably to account for itself.
In Korea Mac badly underestimated the real and potential problems that he caused and then later did not have the will to fight. He astually implored the President to use atomic bombs against the Chinese units in the field. That would have started a global nuclear war in 1950 and we might have still been in the middle it if now, only without our comfortable living room computers to discuss the past.
Still playing PacWar (but no so much anymore)...
I have to say that Morrison gives a good reason
for why Macs planes got blown away.
He admits he is guessing, but he states that
Berenton and Macs chief of staff hated each others guts. They flatly refused to cooperate
with each other. He implies that someone simply
didnt get critical information because of it,
AND that it was delibrete. Well that is hardly
Macs fault, except in the abstract
for why Macs planes got blown away.
He admits he is guessing, but he states that
Berenton and Macs chief of staff hated each others guts. They flatly refused to cooperate
with each other. He implies that someone simply
didnt get critical information because of it,
AND that it was delibrete. Well that is hardly
Macs fault, except in the abstract
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
1)MacArthur was a professional soldier who dedicated his life to his profession and his country. He also felt that he could not ask his men to be brave if, he himself, was not also brave. It is interesting to note that he was highly decorated for bravery in WWI.Originally posted by Chiteng:
1)Any lieutenant can stand at the head of his troops
and become a martyr. That may or may NOT be courage. It could be he wanted to be a martyr.
2)Mac was a three star general, holding not one but
TWO commisions. No one forced him to take them.
If you hold a commision you had better damn well do what the prez says. Disagreement is a luxury.
The ultimate protest is to simply resign. He didnt.
2) As to your second point, MacArthur became a 5 Star General, and was promoted Field Marshall of the Phillipine Army.
Disagreement was a luxury?
MacArthur had a brilliant mind and he also knew the Oriental mind, and his enemy. He could clearly see what needed to be done in Korea. He saw China as a very real threat. It is interesting today to see China's military buildup in the Far East. Maybe we have yet to see the threat that China can be.
[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Von Rom ]
[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Von Rom ]</p>
You forget one thing: MacArthur was a professional soldier, sworn to obey and do his duty. I do not personally agree with what happened. But Washington ORDERED him to dispurse the protestors. As a soldier he had to obey, or be relieved of command.Originally posted by Stubby:
Does Mac sending the army in to murder the protesting WW1 vets (your own men for gods sake) mean nothing to you people (and if you dont know what Im talking about, go read your own history books).
In my books for that alone he should be written off as a callous prick whose greatest priority in life was his own political standing.
Also, there is substantial evidence that MacArthur and many others sincerely believed that
Communists were behind the protestors.
Where is your proof that ANYONE was murdered?
Even so, one does not judge an entire life based on one incident.
Sorry Chiteng, the Commander is responsible for EVERYTHING that anyone in his unit does or fails to do. This is the vital part of Command responsibility of which I am intimately familiar.
Mac set up that command system and it is his ultimate responsibility for the failures on that day after the PH raid.
This is where Roosevelt came closest to relieving Mac.
Mac set up that command system and it is his ultimate responsibility for the failures on that day after the PH raid.
This is where Roosevelt came closest to relieving Mac.
Still playing PacWar (but no so much anymore)...
Mac fired on the crowd? In fact, it was the police that fired on the protestors, not the army.Originally posted by Chiteng:
Sure Stubby, the Wobblies (I think)
mached ob Washington DC in 1932.(again I think)
Mac fired on the crowd, doing his best imitation
of Napoleon. But without the talent.
The men were indigent and dying of starvation
the Gov owed them pensions. The idea that they
would die of starvation before they ever got the pensions made the kinda angry.
But I agree, that the burning of the protestors' shanty town was inexcusable.