Report on China (from under the hood)

[el cid again]

I reviewed the locations in China for economics
and the land units for values. I found that

many regular units - especially the better ones (with vehicles - or communist) - and most of the artillery - had 5 static devices so they cannot move. I removed these - but put 1 static device in all guerilla corps - so they won't move voluntarily - but if hit hard in an attack - they have a good chance of losing the one device and then retreating to a different hex - then for a while they will be mobile - but when and if they get good supply they will rebuild and the static device will return - so the gurilla units simulate being based in a district - and can move to a nearby district under pressure - but they are not really regular mobile units. ALL regular units now can move as real units can - which is wrong for China - but there are problems figuring out how to restrict them - and players cannot like it when they must either stand and die or stand and watch their friends exploit an opportunity

That guerilla corps have no machine guns. I put 6 in the base organization, and issued 4 to units at start (because these units are uniformly at 2/3 strength). This corresponds to de facto 2 per functional company - which is about right - a Chinese heavy weapons platoon would have 2 mg - just as a Japanese one would.

That no attention had been paid to making Chinese industry able to function. By this I mean locations with industry do not begin with sufficient oil and resources to actually produce anything when the game begins - and that is probably their very best day! I have adopted a uniform standard that a location with resources will have at least 10 days of production in inventory. Thus there is some oil and resources available to send to the hexes which need them.

That there is no way for the Ledo Road - or the Burma Road - to function.
I am not sure it is safe to make them function? This might result in supplies and resources being sucked OUT of China (they go by surface routes farther and faster than they could ever fly). IF we tie China and India via Burma by ANY ground line that works - it will take tests to know which way things will flow.

[pad152]

Ar

hat there is no way for the Ledo Road - or the Burma Road - to function.

Are you saying that closing the Burma Road doesn't work?

What about putting resouces/oil on one side and heavy industry on the other?

[m10bob]

That there is no way for the Ledo Road - or the Burma Road - to function.

I don't have a lot of time spent playing the vanilla game, but in CHS, the cities along this route have NEVER had more than maybe 2000 supply even after I captured ALL of SE Asia, and all of China (except for the 4 cities closest to Shanghai, as the Allies mid 1944)..This would certainly explain why!!!!
I was even trying to supply those line towns with huge C 46's, 2 squadrons per point and the supply was going nowhere in proportion to expectations!

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

That guerilla corps have no machine guns. I put 6 in the base organization, and issued 4 to units at start (because these units are uniformly at 2/3 strength). This corresponds to de facto 2 per functional company - which is about right - a Chinese heavy weapons platoon would have 2 mg - just as a Japanese one would.

I believe that all Infantry support support weapons such as MG's, light mortars less than 61mm, and hand held AT weapons are already factored into the squads. By this do you mean that you added some sort of AA MG's, which are seperate devices inthe game?

[el cid again]

Since guerilla units get along well with the local population - to which they are more or less tied by a static device - and since there is a secret (and mobile if need be) "supply well" field for each unit - I am giving each unit a small daily supply.

Since Communists focused on good behavior of such units, I am giving them twice as much daily supply.

If a unit has more supplies than it needs, and nearby units need them, code will share - so the book say.

[el cid again]

Are you saying that closing the Burma Road doesn't work?

It is kind of sort of de facto closed to begin with.

Now this may not apply to resources - the jury is out and the manual is silent (even if we could trust it - which is problematical)

but for supplies the manual is clear - credit to Andrew Brown for pointing this out: AI gives a value of 100 points and subtracts 25 per hex for trails - and refuses to send any supplies when the value returned is 0 or less.

I am considering "repairing" the trail so it works as a sort of tirtiary road -
if that is not too radical - again using a method proposed by Andrew - and which I am experimenting with on the ALCAN and other places

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: pad152
Are you saying that closing the Burma Road doesn't work?

The Burma Road is a special case - as long as the road is not cut by the Japanese, 500 supply points appear in Tsuyung (Yunan on stock maps). It has been a while now, but when I tested the Burma Road on my map it was working OK.

Andrew

[el cid again]

The Burma Road is a special case - as long as the road is not cut by the Japanese, 500 supply points appear in Tsuyung (Yunan on stock maps). It has been a while now, but when I tested the Burma Road on my map it was working OK.

Thanks. Will check it out.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I reviewed the locations in China for economics
and the land units for values. I found that

many regular units - especially the better ones (with vehicles - or communist) - and most of the artillery - had 5 static devices so they cannot move. I removed these - but put 1 static device in all guerilla corps - so they won't move voluntarily - but if hit hard in an attack - they have a good chance of losing the one device and then retreating to a different hex - then for a while they will be mobile - but when and if they get good supply they will rebuild and the static device will return - so the gurilla units simulate being based in a district - and can move to a nearby district under pressure - but they are not really regular mobile units. ALL regular units now can move as real units can - which is wrong for China - but there are problems figuring out how to restrict them - and players cannot like it when they must either stand and die or stand and watch their friends exploit an opportunity

That guerilla corps have no machine guns. I put 6 in the base organization, and issued 4 to units at start (because these units are uniformly at 2/3 strength). This corresponds to de facto 2 per functional company - which is about right - a Chinese heavy weapons platoon would have 2 mg - just as a Japanese one would.

That no attention had been paid to making Chinese industry able to function. By this I mean locations with industry do not begin with sufficient oil and resources to actually produce anything when the game begins - and that is probably their very best day! I have adopted a uniform standard that a location with resources will have at least 10 days of production in inventory. Thus there is some oil and resources available to send to the hexes which need them.

That there is no way for the Ledo Road - or the Burma Road - to function.
I am not sure it is safe to make them function? This might result in supplies and resources being sucked OUT of China (they go by surface routes farther and faster than they could ever fly). IF we tie China and India via Burma by ANY ground line that works - it will take tests to know which way things will flow.

CID Just a thought. The Ledo Road was built during the war. I dopn't think it was actually finished until 1945. Now with the game system what it is, it has to be "on map" for the whole game or not at all..., but is there any way to "shut it down" for supply movement ? At least until a period when it COULD have been built. I don't know if it's possible, but it might answer the problem.

[el cid again]

CID Just a thought. The Ledo Road was built during the war. I dopn't think it was actually finished until 1945. Now with the game system what it is, it has to be "on map" for the whole game or not at all..., but is there any way to "shut it down" for supply movement ? At least until a period when it COULD have been built. I don't know if it's possible, but it might answer the problem.

This is a multi part question:

1) The Burma Road was working when the war began. Then Japan took most of Burma, and it was cut.

2) The Allies then built the Ledo Road, and when completed, it connected with the Eastern part of the Burma Road, so it was working again. This took a very long time, however, and was not really very significant: C-83s and C-46s flying the hump probably mattered more.

If you are asking "can the Japanese cut the road?" - Sure - but not by bombing - only by taking it (or putting a ZOC on it). If you are asking (and I know you are ) can we force it not to exist until it was finished? Nope - just as with ALCAN - which does not exist at all when the game begins - and upgrades during the war - we have to compromise. If you are asking "is it possible to do this in theory?" Sure it is. I want to be able to upgrade roads - building them from zero is a problem - players may "cheat" and pick impractical routes.

FYI I now do not use the term trails except to be understood: I use "primary railroad/highway; secondary railroad/road; low capacity railroad/secondary road" for the three classes of communications.

[treespider]

I wanted to stay out of this but I can't resist...

Some things to consider about local economies in China "in the game". To shut down Chinese production all the Japanese have to do is be in the same hex as the factory and/or resources. This was why the changes made to China were done in the fashion that they were - by reallocationg Resource and Factory distribution to a daily supply allocation (which cannot be shut down). Players found that it was "too easy" to shut down Chinese supply in Stock.

[el cid again]

Some things to consider about local economies in China "in the game". To shut down Chinese production all the Japanese have to do is be in the same hex as the factory and/or resources. This was why the changes made to China were done in the fashion that they were - by reallocationg Resource and Factory distribution to a daily supply allocation (which cannot be shut down). Players found that it was "too easy" to shut down Chinese supply in Stock.

Thanks. Now we know. Note, however (according to Joe) no one ever has taken Chunking - and no one ever will. Even if that turns out not to be true - techincal problems make it a very rare and costly thing to attempt. China simply cannot be shut off from all its industry generated supplies. And to insure this remains very hard to do - and to simulate the infractructures that don't move well - and also to get a supply sink at Beijing and Canton - I tied the Japanese China HQ down. Japan will not be able to move in command range of Western China to get around the problems being out of range causes. This is pretty good (if crude) simulation of the problems Japan faced if it attempted to go to the Upper Yangze - or the Upper Yellow River for that matter. [Note that Gen Yamashita - long before we got in the war - took a division far up the Yellow River - earning himself a reputation something like that of Rommel - for civilized behavior even among his enemies. But it was not practical to sustain control of the region, and there was never any hope of going all the way to the Western Provinces.] Note I have also done things about making China rougher - and having routes critical to supply distribution - neither of which was present in stock or CHS (until now - Andrew is now roughing up his map and adding some road like things too). And before Japan never had any supply problems of its own. Now its fleet has half the capacity to carry things (about), and probably 20 times the need to carry things. So we need to give the system a fair chance to find out how it works if we let it work as designed? I expect problems - but I suspect we will be able to address many or all of them effectively. [Pray for me]

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Thanks. Now we know. Note, however (according to Joe) no one ever has taken Chunking - and no one ever will. Even if that turns out not to be true - techincal problems make it a very rare and costly thing to attempt.

Chungking was taken by Gen.Hoepner in a game vs. mc ("Italian Affair") in a game based on Andrew's map (not CHS - there was an AAR some time ago). And I assume there were other games where it was taken as well (not every game has its AAR).

K

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

CID Just a thought. The Ledo Road was built during the war. I dopn't think it was actually finished until 1945. Now with the game system what it is, it has to be "on map" for the whole game or not at all..., but is there any way to "shut it down" for supply movement ? At least until a period when it COULD have been built. I don't know if it's possible, but it might answer the problem.

This is a multi part question:

1) The Burma Road was working when the war began. Then Japan took most of Burma, and it was cut.

2) The Allies then built the Ledo Road, and when completed, it connected with the Eastern part of the Burma Road, so it was working again. This took a very long time, however, and was not really very significant: C-83s and C-46s flying the hump probably mattered more.

If you are asking "can the Japanese cut the road?" - Sure - but not by bombing - only by taking it (or putting a ZOC on it). If you are asking (and I know you are ) can we force it not to exist until it was finished? Nope - just as with ALCAN - which does not exist at all when the game begins - and upgrades during the war - we have to compromise. If you are asking "is it possible to do this in theory?" Sure it is. I want to be able to upgrade roads - building them from zero is a problem - players may "cheat" and pick impractical routes.

FYI I now do not use the term trails except to be understood: I use "primary railroad/highway; secondary railroad/road; low capacity railroad/secondary road" for the three classes of communications.

No.., what I was asking is if anyone had found a "switch" in the supply code that could keep the Ledo Road from being considered a "connection" by the game's supply movement system until Late '44. With the Burma Road shut down as soon as the Japanese take Rangoon, that would force "flying the hump" on the Allies until such time as the Ledo Road was actually built. And if the Japanese were still occupying it, supply would still be shut down. Like I said, it was just a thought...

[el cid again]

No.., what I was asking is if anyone had found a "switch" in the supply code that could keep the Ledo Road from being considered a "connection" by the game's supply movement system until Late '44. With the Burma Road shut down as soon as the Japanese take Rangoon, that would force "flying the hump" on the Allies until such time as the Ledo Road was actually built. And if the Japanese were still occupying it, supply would still be shut down. Like I said, it was just a thought...

Well - yes - there is a switch. Like all Matrix stuff - the supply slot is hard coded - so we have the ability to use the slot - or not. But whichever you pick - you are in for the duration. I can make the 500 supply points go away - because the road is not operational - but they never come back.
Or I can cut the road itself - change the map. But no - there is no dynamic way to date set the road to "activate" - which I now guess is your meaning.