Any River

[GreenDestiny]

From the manual

Terrain Effects on Attacking Unit Strengths
Land units attacking from a river, super river, canal, Suez Canal, or deep water location (amphibious assaults) have all strengths multiplied by 0.7.

Wow… that means that every time you attack from a river… it’s like D-Day.
But what if you’re not really attacking from a river, you’re just following it. Example; a river goes North to South and it’s on your right flank. Your attacking North to South with the river on your right flank, your not crossing it, your just following it, why should you be penalize fore it. This rule just sucks.

This is way I’m against rivers running through hexes. They should be only on hex-sides. That way you know what side of the river you’re on.[:-]

[Catch21]

It's just one of those things you have to live with- along with 'ant' attacks and other issues. It was mooted as an optional enhancement ages ago (i.e. you could have rivers intra-hex or on hex-sides), though where that now stands I'm not sure.

[GreenDestiny]

ORIGINAL: General Staff

It's just one of those things you have to live with

Yeah…but it really bugs me. [;)]

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny

Wow… that means that every time you attack from a river… it’s like D-Day.
But what if you’re not really attacking from a river, you’re just following it. Example; a river goes North to South and it’s on your right flank. Your attacking North to South with the river on your right flank, your not crossing it, your just following it, why should you be penalize fore it. This rule just sucks.

If the defender is also on a river hex, they suffer the same penalty, so the net effect is nil.

I guess in theory hexside rivers make more sense. But changing TOAW in this way would require a revision of every single existing scenario (well, except one or two that don't have any rivers).

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: General Staff

It's just one of those things you have to live with- along with 'ant' attacks and other issues.

One of those things we HAD to live with. Now we're getting a new version. Said issues are what we should be looking at.

[Catch21]

Said issues are what we should be looking at.

Indeed. And in the works as we speak so I understand.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
But changing TOAW in this way would require a revision of every single existing scenario (well, except one or two that don't have any rivers).

From the statement it appears this is not a "change" but a new graphic based on the escarpment.

It won't effect any scenarios.

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava

From the statement it appears this is not a "change" but a new graphic based on the escarpment.

? You're getting that from the post that started this thread?

Anyway, the above is what Jarek already does in his "White Eagle: Red Star" series. It's neat but not ideal since ferry units and bridges don't work exactly how they should.

[nemo69]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
If the defender is also on a river hex, they suffer the same penalty, so the net effect is nil.

Curious. I've always been under the impression that river penalties affected the attacker only and that sitting on a river hex had no detrimental effect for the defence.

Might have been wrong though.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Lava

From the statement it appears this is not a "change" but a new graphic based on the escarpment.

? You're getting that from the post that started this thread?

Nope...

It was in the Any more previews? thread where ralph, amongst other things said this..

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
One clever designer (Jaroslaw Flis) modified the graphics of Escarpments to be hex-side rivers using this approach.

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava

Nope...

It was in the Any more previews? thread where ralph, amongst other things said this..

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
One clever designer (Jaroslaw Flis) modified the graphics of Escarpments to be hex-side rivers using this approach.

Right. That's not what we're talking about here, though.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Nemo69
Curious. I've always been under the impression that river penalties affected the attacker only and that sitting on a river hex had no detrimental effect for the defence.

Might have been wrong though.

Well I could be wrong too, but it's been my experience that defending on a river hex is a bad idea. So much so that I've made sure to divert rivers away from key hexes in some of my scenarios.

[GreenDestiny]

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
One clever designer (Jaroslaw Flis) modified the graphics of Escarpments to be hex-side rivers using this approach.

If this shows up in the game, then I’m definitely going to get it.
I’ll just pick out my favorite scenarios and move the rivers to the hex-sides. It may take some time but it shouldn’t be too hard to do. And other people who are making new scenarios my want to use this modification.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
If the defender is also on a river hex, they suffer the same penalty, so the net effect is nil.

Curious. I've always been under the impression that river penalties affected the attacker only and that sitting on a river hex had no detrimental effect for the defence.

Might have been wrong though.

I made some tests long ago that showed no penalty for defending in a river hex.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I made some tests long ago that showed no penalty for defending in a river hex.

If you're going to introduce facts into this discussion then we're never going to get anywhere.

[roboczar]

Yeah, I agree that there is no penalty for defending on a river hex. I believe this is also in the documentation, as well as covered in the help file.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: roboczar

I believe this is also in the documentation, as well as covered in the help file.

Well, these are notoriously unreliable. Of course, I suppose if this has been tested...

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I made some tests long ago that showed no penalty for defending in a river hex.

If you're going to introduce facts into this discussion then we're never going to get anywhere.

Well, my tests don't always rise all the way to the level of facts. Usually, they are sold as is, without warranty.

[GreenDestiny]

I have a question, what were they thinking when they decided to put the rivers through the hex instead of the hex sides? What are the benefits of this?

Because... I just don’t get it. This game has so much detail in it I find it hard to believe they would add something like this in it without some kind of a benefit. But it seems like now no one knows what going on when it comes to defending on a river hex, let alone attacking from it or around it. Almost every wargame that I have has rivers on the hex-sides, so what’s the deal with this one. [&:]

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny

I have a question, what were they thinking when they decided to put the rivers through the hex instead of the hex sides? What are the benefits of this?

Because... I just don’t get it. This game has so much detail in it I find it hard to believe they would add something like this in it without some kind of a benefit. But it seems like now no one knows what going on when it comes to defending on a river hex, let alone attacking from it or around it. Almost every wargame that I have has rivers on the hex-sides, so what’s the deal with this one. [&:]

I believe the rationale had to do with riverine units - which must travel on rivers, and bridges - which require blowing, repair, and targeting. It would have been much more complicated to shift those functions from the hex to the hexside.

I expect there was also an aesthetic aspect as well. Note that the few hexside features (minor & major escarpments) don't actually fall on the hexside, but are just within the hex. Hexside rivers would require the same - creating the same confusion. Or they would have to look like the featureless "border" to be placed actually on the hexside. Having a river feature that both looked like a winding river and actually fit on the hexside would probably have been too technically complicated - impacting tiles on both sides of the hex.

And it's debatable which mode is the more accurate. Rivers certainly do have sides to them, but they are not microscopically thin and perfectly straight. Their widths actually do take up some space, they do wind around, and have local tributaries. The river might be all over that 10km hex, and an attack that looks parallel to the river on the TOAW map may actually afford the defenders the benefit of one of its curves or tributaries.