Ideas for stronger ANZAC defense

[FDRLincoln]

I've been toying with the idea of creating a mod where Australia and New Zealand decided on a defense buildup in the mid-30s earlier than they did in real life, or at least differently. It would be balanced by slightly weaker British forces at start.

Some ideas:
A small Australian submarine force
Some additional squadrons using obsolete aircraft passed down by the RAF (Gladiators? Battles?)
A few extra WW1 surplus destroyers of the V-class

Any other ideas?

[mlees]

As another alternative:

Due to the lack of support from the UK Home Isles (due to defence spending cuts), the Dominions turn to the US for their weapon systems.

S-boats, 4 piper destroyers, maybe a treaty cruiser or two purchased as "fleet flag ships" from the shipyards.

Of course, then your stuck with Buffalo's, P-26's, Bolo's...

[FDRLincoln]

That's a possibility. Or perhaps a mixture of the two....a couple of P-36 squadrons (or maybe something weird like P-35s) along with some RAF hand-me-downs.

How about something radical, like the RN transfers Hermes and the Americans transfer Langley (in carrier configuration) to give the Aussies a primitive carrier arm? Outfitted with some obsolete aircraft like Sea Gladiators?

[Big B]

Hi,
I think what Australia really needs are aircraft and Destroyers. Get out your Conways (preferably) or Janes, and see what they could have gotten from the Royal Navy (older DDs modernized in the late 30's?).

Aircraft, well if it's 1938-39 and your are the Australian defense minister what would you buy? The Dutch were in the same shoes in real life. Forget getting Hurricanes and Spitfires. The Buffalo isn't a bad choice honestly, but the Dutch and Finns are buying them all up.

Your most likely choice is the Curtis P-36, not a bad aircraft for it's day and Light years ahead of the Wirraway and Lysander. I also believe Curtis was exporting them aggressively so...

Good luck with the project., sounds like fun.

B

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

I've been toying with the idea of creating a mod where Australia and New Zealand decided on a defense buildup in the mid-30s earlier than they did in real life, or at least differently. It would be balanced by slightly weaker British forces at start.

Some ideas:
A small Australian submarine force
Some additional squadrons using obsolete aircraft passed down by the RAF (Gladiators? Battles?)
A few extra WW1 surplus destroyers of the V-class

Any other ideas?

[FDRLincoln]

I have been flipping through Conway's. My thinking is to give the Aussie's some of Stuart's sister ships, plus a D-class cruiser for additional surface forces.

Submarines.....hmm.....would they want something relatively large for Pacific operations, or something small like old K-class subs or a few newer U-class subs for coastal defense?

Giving them back the seaplane tender Albatross seems reasonable.

Aircraft....how about three 12-plane squadrons of P-36s purchased from Curtiss?

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

I have been flipping through Conway's. My thinking is to give the Aussie's some of Stuart's sister ships, plus a D-class cruiser for additional surface forces.

Submarines.....hmm.....would they want something relatively large for Pacific operations, or something small like old K-class subs or a few newer U-class subs for coastal defense?

Giving them back the seaplane tender Albatross seems reasonable.

Aircraft....how about three 12-plane squadrons of P-36s purchased from Curtiss?

I think those are great ideas, the subs would be good too.
I'm not familiiar enough with RN subs off the top of my head to suggest which class would be more appropriate.
I would say 16 plane squadrons - I think that is RAF standard in the game.

B

[JeffroK]

Will any of the above adjustments make any difference??

Probably very little.

Why not go down a "No Russian Lend Lease" & No AIF in the Mid East or Malaya & concentrate the Australian units for Home Defence.

Add about 200 Hurricane II to the RAAF and replace the Wirraway.

Add to start up 6,7 & 9 Aust Infantry Divs. Plus 3 RAAF & the EATS Sqns from UK & the Med
Bring 8 Div out of Malaya, along with the RAAF units there. (Malaya wouldnt fall much faster)


Add enough Valentine tanks to fill out 1 Aust Armoured Div plus continued replacements to allow another (maybe left as Rgts)

Refloat HMAS Sydney, and the DD's lost in the Mediterranean.
Base Force Z, with the CV, at Sydney or Brisbane

Tweak the experience & morale of the Militia up a few points.

Similar upgrades, return of the NZ Div & Navy could be done to NZ.

IMHO, Carriers are a bit too much of a change.

Make Melbourne the point for CW reinforcements.

[bbbf]

Perth would be a better choice for re-inforcements, that's where they would land from the CW.

Why not have Australia realising it wouldn't be getting anything from anybody, ramping up it's own production years earlier.

Give them Sentinel AC-1's to fill out the tank units - it would have been a pretty good afv by all accounts, this can upgrade to AC 2 and AC 3.

Start producing Beauforts earlier, and replace most of the Hudsons.

If they started earlier, there is no reason why they could not have been building Buffalo's here, give them a factory and then upgrade to some more modern type in late 42, early 43.

I think that the Middle East divisions should arive as is, but bring the 2 Singapore brigades home.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: bbbf

Perth would be a better choice for re-inforcements, that's where they would land from the CW.

Why not have Australia realising it wouldn't be getting anything from anybody, ramping up it's own production years earlier.

Give them Sentinel AC-1's to fill out the tank units - it would have been a pretty good afv by all accounts, this can upgrade to AC 2 and AC 3.

Start producing Beauforts earlier, and replace most of the Hudsons.

If they started earlier, there is no reason why they could not have been building Buffalo's here, give them a factory and then upgrade to some more modern type in late 42, early 43.

I think that the Middle East divisions should arive as is, but bring the 2 Singapore brigades home.

Only John Howard would build a Buffalo Factory!!

I think Australia would have leant toward Britain rather than the USA.

Why not a Hurricane/Spitfire Factory, part of spreading the production across the Commonwealth.

Yeah, add the Beauforts and have the Beaufighter just entering service.

Sentinals are a good idea, especially the 2 x 25pdr version.

Perth would be a good base, too open too interdiction from the North, plus I believe its outside of the Brisbane Line.

[bbbf]

In terms of back story, perhaps Pig Iron Bob's plane to London crashes over the Pacific...

That way, we wouldn't have a pro-Imperial suck hole sending troops everywhere but our own backyard, and we would definitely be leaning towards the US more...

I only suggest the Buffalo because we actually used it, and most people thought it was OK until they met the Japs in combat.

As to subs, I would think we could not have afforded big, new boats, so someone's cast off's would have had to do.

[JeffroK]

Yeah, we had a small sub force after WW1 but didnt get it replaced until the Oberons arrived.

I wouldnt cut the ties to the UK, they were better prepared than the USA, just not prepared to send much to us.

Someone mentioned the RAAF having Battles, actually they had hundreds of them in a training role which surely would have been armed in case of Invasion. They would be the equivalent of the Japanese single engined light bombers, and had reasonable range which is vital over OZ.

(Thinks, this might be interesting, stop given ideas to others, the Battle might make an appearance in RHS v 9.23)

[trojan58]

The RAN was given 3 or 4 'J' class SS in 1919 or there abouts. You could add those to the RAN. Also refit the old town class CL's (similar to the Adelaide) 3 of those.

That would be a good start.

[FDRLincoln]

Ok, let's round up here.

ADDITIONAL SURFACE FORCES:
RN transfers Destroyers Bruce, Malcom, and Campbell (sisters of Stuart) begin game under Australian control.
Add a D-class cruiser to act as a "destroyer leader"
A sister for Adelaide
Seaplane tender Albatross never transfers to RN.
Some additional minesweepers and patrol craft? Particularly for RNZN?

SUBMARINE FORCE
I think an Australian submarine force would be primarily a defensive asset. So some refurbished L-class subs would make sense, supplemented by a few U-class subs arriving from the UK in early 1942?

ADDITIONAL AIR POWER
3 squadrons of Curtiss P-36s imported from US. These will upgrade to Kittyhawks at the appropriate time.
Fairey Battles. How many?

ADDITIONAL LAND FORCES
Bump up experience and/or improve equipment of the militia units
Bring some of the imperial units home early

[Kereguelen]

Hi,

if you really want to make ANZAC defense stronger you should add the missing Kiwi brigades and LAFV regiments (the latter instead of the Mounted Brigades). NZ is lacking the majority of its ground forces in vanilla WITP.

K

[FDRLincoln]

Anyone have a good internet source for NZ ground forces in WW2?

[FDRLincoln]

OK, here is my current plan. Input and comments are welcome.

This mod will be called the "Stronger ANZAC Mod." The starting point will be CHS, whenever the newest version comes out.

Additional ANZAC Forces:

CL Diomede and Dunedin. In real life these ships were under RNZN control from 1925 to 1937 before transferring back to RN. In the mod they stayed with RNZN. Will begin game at Wellington.

DD Bruce, Malcom, and Campbell. These were sister ships of Stuart, and in this mod were transferred to the RAN at the same time Stuart was. Will begin game in Melbourne, perhaps under refit.

Seaplane tender Albatross never transfers from RAN to RN. Begins game under RAN control somewhere along the eastern coast.

Four L50-class submarines, refitted and transferred to RAN in the late 1930s. Might begin game at Darwin with an Australian AS tender. Not sure yet.

32 Curtiss P-36s imported from US to Australia
Unknown number of Fairey Battles.


Still thinking about land force modifications.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

In Sept 1939 Poland was waiting for arrival of 100 Battles. These were never received because of start of war. Maybe these might be bought ocassionaly by Australia after fall of Poland? So hundred of Battles seem reasonable.

For land forces... Sentinels in tank regiments. These tank regiments consolidated into brigades, or even divisions...

Thats my proposals.

[Reg]

How about this for a radical concept. It nearly happened.....

What if... Mitsubishi's for Australia.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

In Sept 1939 Poland was waiting for arrival of 100 Battles. These were never received because of start of war. Maybe these might be bought ocassionaly by Australia after fall of Poland? So hundred of Battles seem reasonable.

Australia already had buckets of Fairly Battles (366 of them to be precise). The only problem they were used by the Empire Air Training Scheme and aren't modelled in the game.....

Australian Military Aircraft Serials and Aircraft History
Follow the menus to RAAF Series 2 then to A22 - Fairey Battle.

[rockmedic109]

The old WWI battlecruiser Australia not being scraped. A modernization or two before war breaks out. I think I read recently that there was some opposition to scraping her at the time.