Secret Supply?

[Ron Saueracker]

What is this "secret supply" El Cid has mentioned exists in places like Melbourne? Is this merely supply generated by the conversion of inherent and shipped in resources or is there yet another AI prop confounding the modder?

[treespider]

It is just a daily supply allotment. In the editor you can specify that a location receive X amount of supply per day that is not dependent on resources or production.

[Ron Saueracker]

Aha! Thanks. I wonder how greatly reduced this is in CHS? Although I run ample convoys to OZ, the supply levels there are possibly high enough to forgo any convoys, fuel excepted. I notice that the resources are piling up faster than can be converted.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Aha! Thanks. I wonder how greatly reduced this is in CHS? Although I run ample convoys to OZ, the supply levels there are possibly high enough to forgo any convoys, fuel excepted. I notice that the resources are piling up faster than can be converted.

In china it is significantly increased...I converted much of the Chinese supply to a daily supply allotment as opposed to a production based system. Per the rule book if a hex has enemy units in it it will not produce resources or normal production...however it will continue to receive it daily supply allotment (not the resource genereated variety however)

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Aha! Thanks. I wonder how greatly reduced this is in CHS?

Daily supply is used in a lot of places on CHS. For much of the map, including India, China and Australia, many of the bases have some daily supply, proportional to the population of the area. I started this process for India a long time ago, and it has been expanded to include China, Australia and some other parts of the map. This is explained in the (not released) CHS 2.0 notes.

The reasons for doing this are two-fold: It reduces the ability of players to "collapse" an economy, such as in China, merely by bombing, or occupying, a few key bases, and it provides an environmnt in which a conquering power can only run a captured economy at no more than 50% efficiency. There is nothing "secret" about it, except that it is not explained adequately in the currently released CHS docs.

Note also that I wanted to extend this revision to the entire map, but I haven't had time to do that yet.

Although I run ample convoys to OZ, the supply levels there are possibly high enough to forgo any convoys, fuel excepted. I notice that the resources are piling up faster than can be converted.

Australia was a net exporter of supplies during the war, and the only country to provide as much to the USA as the USA supplied to it as part of the Lend Lease arrangements.

Andrew

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Aha! Thanks. I wonder how greatly reduced this is in CHS?

Daily supply is used in a lot of places on CHS. For much of the map, including India, China and Australia, many of the bases have some daily supply, proportional to the population of the area. I started this process for India a long time ago, and it has been expanded to include China, Australia and some other parts of the map. This is explained in the (not released) CHS 2.0 notes.

The reasons for doing this are two-fold: It reduces the ability of players to "collapse" an economy, such as in China, merely by bombing, or occupying, a few key bases, and it provides an environmnt in which a conquering power can only run a captured economy at no more than 50% efficiency. There is nothing "secret" about it, except that it is not explained adequately in the currently released CHS docs.

Note also that I wanted to extend this revision to the entire map, but I haven't had time to do that yet.

Although I run ample convoys to OZ, the supply levels there are possibly high enough to forgo any convoys, fuel excepted. I notice that the resources are piling up faster than can be converted.

Australia was a net exporter of supplies during the war, and the only country to provide as much to the USA as the USA supplied to it as part of the Lend Lease arrangements.

Andrew

Australia was a net exporter of supplies during the war, and the only country to provide as much to the USA as the USA supplied to it as part of the Lend Lease arrangements.

Guess this is simply a drawback of not having more specialist supplies. I never even thought of shipping resources to North America from OZ though, although the resources are ample enough to do so. There is more than enough supply there too.

Makes sense to have this daily supply with regard to preventing gamey manipulation of on map supply. Any word on whether or not supply might be severed from resources in the future?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Guess this is simply a drawback of not having more specialist supplies. I never even thought of shipping resources to North America from OZ though, although the resources are ample enough to do so. There is more than enough supply there too.

True. The supplies the Australians provided to the USA were basic supplies like food etc, supplied to US forces in the area, not shipped to the USA, I believe.

As for excess resources in Australia, I have deliberately reduced this excess in the next CHS, as part of the provision of an "expanding" US economy. The USA is given large numbers of "damaged" resource centres, which they have to repair during the game to generate increased supply levels. If Australia was left with too many excess resources, then the Allied players may have been tempted to simply ship these to the USA instead of repairing the centres, thus circumventing how I intend the system to work. So I trimmed back the Aussie excess, replacing some of it with daily supplies.

Any word on whether or not supply might be severed from resources in the future?

That is a question for Joe or Don. It sure would make modding economies a lot easier.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Guess this is simply a drawback of not having more specialist supplies. I never even thought of shipping resources to North America from OZ though, although the resources are ample enough to do so. There is more than enough supply there too.

True. The supplies the Australians provided to the USA were basic supplies like food etc, supplied to US forces in the area, not shipped to the USA, I believe.

As for excess resources in Australia, I have deliberately reduced this excess in the next CHS, as part of the provision of an "expanding" US economy. The USA is given large numbers of "damaged" resource centres, which they have to repair during the game to generate increased supply levels. If Australia was left with too many excess resources, then the Allied players may have been tempted to simply ship these to the USA instead of repairing the centres, thus circumventing how I intend the system to work. So I trimmed back the Aussie excess, replacing some of it with daily supplies.

Any word on whether or not supply might be severed from resources in the future?

That is a question for Joe or Don. It sure would make modding economies a lot easier.

This sounds interesting!

[el cid again]

Aha! Thanks. I wonder how greatly reduced this is in CHS?

The main difference between CHS and RHS supply wise is the LACK of "secret supply" in RHS. I force players or AI to make supply points - not to get them for free -

except at the points where supply enters the map from off map areas

just as stock and CHS do.

[el cid again]

In china it is significantly increased...I converted much of the Chinese supply to a daily supply allotment as opposed to a production based system. Per the rule book if a hex has enemy units in it it will not produce resources or normal production...however it will continue to receive it daily supply allotment (not the resource genereated variety however)

\

And in China I got rid of ALL secret supply (with the notable exception of creating it for units - a new concept - not for locations - my guerillas eat from sources invisible to the enemy). And using production based supply in China works - and works better than I exptected - given what Treespider and others had said. There is, however, one hard code source of supply in China - the terminus of the Burma Road - which I regard as correct and would not tamper with if I could.

[el cid again]

Daily supply is used in a lot of places on CHS. For much of the map, including India, China and Australia, many of the bases have some daily supply, proportional to the population of the area. I started this process for India a long time ago, and it has been expanded to include China, Australia and some other parts of the map. This is explained in the (not released) CHS 2.0 notes.

The reasons for doing this are two-fold: It reduces the ability of players to "collapse" an economy, such as in China, merely by bombing, or occupying, a few key bases, and it provides an environmnt in which a conquering power can only run a captured economy at no more than 50% efficiency. There is nothing "secret" about it, except that it is not explained adequately in the currently released CHS docs.

I named it "secret supply" because it is supply not from supply sources, from industry, or from resource hexes players can see/know about. I still call it secret supply when I do it - it is not a pejorative term.

I got rid of it. It breaks the design intent of WITP and prevents the economic system from functioning. Further, it exaserbates the problem of too much local supply - no need to move supplies from Japan (or the US, or wherever). Not only should resources centers not (always) make supplies, but also secret supply should not exist - except where it should. I have MANY points of TINY amounts (typically 1 or 2 points) - due to fish or other food production - and sometimes other things - in excess of local consumption. [This is normal on major Pacific islands which lack "resources" in the usual sense - but do produce food - copra and fish. SOME islands also have resources - almost always guana. New Caledonia is the great exception - a major source of minerals.]

RHS is attempting to give merchant ships a job: Haul resources to production centers; haul supplies from map edge supply sources or production centers to where they are needed. That means they are not just ships to burn with invasion troops. Further, you cannot establish IF Japan succeeds in setting up an autarky UNLESS you allow the economic system to work.

The idea that invasion and/or bombing cannot collapse an economy is nonsense: even a large Japanese economy (and a German one) were so collapsed. Not to allow it is not to simulate a WWII conflict. I am skeptical that China, India, Australia, Russia or the US will be successfully collapsed by Japan very often - and have never heard of one case yet where it has happened in RHS to any of these places (I am running test game number 56). The DEI and Philippines, Malaya and Burma SHOULD be collapsed - and then restart. [I don't even think the DEI or Philippine economies actually worked in CHS or stock: but they do in RHS - and they also collapse - as they should.]

[el cid again]

Makes sense to have this daily supply with regard to preventing gamey manipulation of on map supply. Any word on whether or not supply might be severed from resources in the future?

I sever it on a case by case basis so effectively I am not sure I WANT to have it reformed in code! The supply sinks have important functions that might be difficult to replace (they would surely cost supplies!) if it were.
It makes the collapse of an economy much greater - the damage to a hex is large and it takes time to come back - even if "undefended" by regular military units. This matters - the AI usually does NOT defend much.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Aha! Thanks. I wonder how greatly reduced this is in CHS?

Daily supply is used in a lot of places on CHS. For much of the map, including India, China and Australia, many of the bases have some daily supply, proportional to the population of the area. I started this process for India a long time ago, and it has been expanded to include China, Australia and some other parts of the map. This is explained in the (not released) CHS 2.0 notes.

The reasons for doing this are two-fold: It reduces the ability of players to "collapse" an economy, such as in China, merely by bombing, or occupying, a few key bases, and it provides an environmnt in which a conquering power can only run a captured economy at no more than 50% efficiency. There is nothing "secret" about it, except that it is not explained adequately in the currently released CHS docs.

Note also that I wanted to extend this revision to the entire map, but I haven't had time to do that yet.

Although I run ample convoys to OZ, the supply levels there are possibly high enough to forgo any convoys, fuel excepted. I notice that the resources are piling up faster than can be converted.

Australia was a net exporter of supplies during the war, and the only country to provide as much to the USA as the USA supplied to it as part of the Lend Lease arrangements.

Andrew

Australia was a net exporter of supplies during the war, and the only country to provide as much to the USA as the USA supplied to it as part of the Lend Lease arrangements.

Guess this is simply a drawback of not having more specialist supplies. I never even thought of shipping resources to North America from OZ though, although the resources are ample enough to do so. There is more than enough supply there too.

Makes sense to have this daily supply with regard to preventing gamey manipulation of on map supply. Any word on whether or not supply might be severed from resources in the future?

Most of this was in the form of foodstuffs. Indeed, it would be possible to claim that the early offensive in the South Pacific/SW Pacific was possible due to the availability of Australia and New Zealand agricultural infracturcture. Armies do not march on empty stomachs.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Makes sense to have this daily supply with regard to preventing gamey manipulation of on map supply. Any word on whether or not supply might be severed from resources in the future?

I sever it on a case by case basis so effectively I am not sure I WANT to have it reformed in code! The supply sinks have important functions that might be difficult to replace (they would surely cost supplies!) if it were.
It makes the collapse of an economy much greater - the damage to a hex is large and it takes time to come back - even if "undefended" by regular military units. This matters - the AI usually does NOT defend much.

even better, food seperated from war materials.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Most of this was in the form of foodstuffs.

That is my understanding as well.

[bradfordkay]

"True. The supplies the Australians provided to the USA were basic supplies like food etc, supplied to US forces in the area, not shipped to the USA, I believe."


Bully beef anyone? I understand that many US veterans of the SWPac command still hold an aversion to mutton as well...

[el cid again]

As for excess resources in Australia, I have deliberately reduced this excess in the next CHS, as part of the provision of an "expanding" US economy. The USA is given large numbers of "damaged" resource centres, which they have to repair during the game to generate increased supply levels. If Australia was left with too many excess resources, then the Allied players may have been tempted to simply ship these to the USA instead of repairing the centres, thus circumventing how I intend the system to work. So I trimmed back the Aussie excess, replacing some of it with daily supplies.

I retained the concept of damaged US industry and resource centers - to reflect their great growth during the war - they expand for years! I like this part of Andrew's concept. But I don't like the idea that it is "wrong" to send resources from the South Pacific to the USA. Parillo thinks a weakness of the Japanese use of their merchant marine was they did not carry resources back on voyages on which they carried units or supplies outbound - unlike us. And of course, vital cargo comes from the area (specifically from New Caledonia) without which the entire US economy could not function. I believe that there should be a lot MORE shipping of resources TO the USA - and so I study how many tons of resources are generated in a hex - convert it to tons per day (divide yearly production by 365) - and give you it ALL. This means you can ship it to the USA, or Japan can capture it, or use it in local industry in Australia (or India) or you might send it to Easter Island (any point) just to make sure Japan cannot capture it! I don't think taking resources that are there off the map makes sense: I did things like ADD the biggest copper mine in Asia (on Luzon) - even though it was not significantly exploited - because it could have been.