Old numbers please

[Tom1939]

HI!

I just get through to 45 with both human to see the equipment changes. I think the numbers changed too much. I like the german equipment but they were not *that* good. And the soviet so *bad*. I mean end of war equipment. 25 attack 30 defence for king tiger (it was 24/21)? 13 attack 13 defence for t34/85 (was 16/12)? The 20/18 for panthers are too strong I think (they were 21/14 but in my mind armor is much more important) Maybe the aircraft changes are good I don't know too much about that, but the armor numbers are wrong. I think it was more real, that the panther and the t34/85 (most used tanks) were in the same weight class with the panther dominating heavily. Now they are different weight class, in theory t34/85 can't hurt the panthers. But in history they could hurt the panthers (and they did while suffering big losses) This is a great game and Matrix does a great job. I just wanted to help.

[Mike Dixon]

I agree. The old WIR data was loosely based on old Steel Panthers numbers (such as front armor and main gun penetration),I think. The new numbers do seem strange.

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Tom1939:
HI!

I just get through to 45 with both human to see the equipment changes. I think the numbers changed too much. I like the german equipment but they were not *that* good. And the soviet so *bad*. I mean end of war equipment. 25 attack 30 defence for king tiger (it was 24/21)? 13 attack 13 defence for t34/85 (was 16/12)? The 20/18 for panthers are too strong I think (they were 21/14 but in my mind armor is much more important) Maybe the aircraft changes are good I don't know too much about that, but the armor numbers are wrong. I think it was more real, that the panther and the t34/85 (most used tanks) were in the same weight class with the panther dominating heavily. Now they are different weight class, in theory t34/85 can't hurt the panthers. But in history they could hurt the panthers (and they did while suffering big losses) This is a great game and Matrix does a great job. I just wanted to help.

In the next release (soon to come), the values have been put back to fairly close to the originals. For the Germans, for example, there are only about 10 changes, and almost all are by only 1 point total. The Soviets are a little more, but still not everything. It seems to play out pretty well in testing. Thanks for the concerns, and we had some also.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Tom1939]

Hi!

Hopefully the new version makes t34/85s the same or even stronger then the original. Not a little bit weaker. They were rough quality but very good tanks. The armor of them is good at 12 but I think historicaly the attack of 16 is justified. But I think they should have an attack of 18 or 19. They had a preatty good punch, far better then previous t34s. I think the difference is something like the normal american shermans and the english firefly sherman (it could knock out tigers from fairly big distance with the 17 pounder) Maybe it should be considered in the numbers game.

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Tom1939:
Hi!

Hopefully the new version makes t34/85s the same or even stronger then the original. Not a little bit weaker. They were rough quality but very good tanks. The armor of them is good at 12 but I think historicaly the attack of 16 is justified. But I think they should have an attack of 18 or 19. They had a preatty good punch, far better then previous t34s. I think the difference is something like the normal american shermans and the english firefly sherman (it could knock out tigers from fairly big distance with the 17 pounder) Maybe it should be considered in the numbers game.

I don't have the data in front of me, so I don't remember exactly what we did on this. However, I do believe the T34/85 and KV85 both have a lower attack rating than the SU85. The reason for this is that the SU85 was primarily tasked with fighting the German tanks, and thus received the majority of the antitank rounds for the 85mm gun, while the tanks received more of the HE rounds to use against infantry. Unfortunately, I don't have my sources for this information handy either, but I have at least two of them. Thus, the ratings are based at least a little on the mix of ammunition carried by the different AFVs.

Hope this makes sense and sounds reasonable. Of course, if the editor is distributed with the game (I think it will be, but I am not sure) then you can change the values to try a higher rating for the T34/85, also. I wondered for quite awhile why the tanks with the 85 had lower attack ratings than the SU85, but this is why.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Harry]

Only a small note:
Mike: WIR was released before SP. So the values are not based on SP.

[RickyB]

After looking over the latest tank data we are testing with, I see that the Panther attack value was lowered to 20, defense the same, the T34/85 and KV85 left the same, the the SU85 attack raised to match the other 85s. All in all I think this is about right, as the extra AP rounds for the SU85 are offset by the lack of a turret. How does that sound?

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Mike Dixon]

Harry - you are right. I did correlate the WIR and first SP game data a while ago, that is my excuse!

RickyB - please forgive my ignorance, is there a formulae anywhere for predicting tank combat?

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Mike Dixon:
Harry - you are right. I did correlate the WIR and first SP game data a while ago, that is my excuse!

RickyB - please forgive my ignorance, is there a formulae anywhere for predicting tank combat?

Sorry, but I don't know the answer to that one myself. I believe that total AT strength (from AFVs, planes, AT guns, etc) is a factor in the determination, so numbers can overwhelm a high defense, if so.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Harry]

Hi Mike and Ricky

This are the original Formulars used:
Found in the manual page 74.
Maybe it helps

FORMULAS APPENDIX

EVENTS FORMULAS

·Western Front:

Allied Strength = (Year - 1941) * 1500
[+ 1000 if weather is clear] [+ 500 if Random > Axis Commander Rating]

Axis Strength = 3 per tank + 1 per squad, recon vehicle, and aircraft + 1/ 5 per artillery and flak assigned to Western Front

After the Allies have landed in France, the Axis may add 1/ 4 of the OKW strength when checking Western Front event checks.

Starting 1944 Axis strength in west is randomized for event checks.
If Axis Elite SS is less than (Year - 1940) then Axis strength is halved (including OKW).

·Italian Front:

Allied Strength = (Year - 1941) * 500 [+ 500 if weather is clear] [+ 500 if Random > Axis Commander Rating]

Axis Strength = 3 per tank + 1 per squad, recon vehicle, and aircraft + 1/ 5 per artillery and flak assigned to Western Front

After Allies have landed in Italy, Axis may add 1/ 4 of the OKW strength for Italian Front event checks.

Starting 1943 Axis strength in Italian Front is randomized for event checks made before the Allies have landed in Italy.

If the number of Panzer Divisions is less than (Year - 1940) then Axis strength is halved (Elite SS counts as 2 Panzer Divisions).
NOTE: Axis Elite SS units are: the SS Panzer Divisions, SS Motorized Divisions, and some of the SS PZGR Divisions.


COMBAT FORMULAS

·Available Division Strengths:
Infantry or Artillery Strength = Total Troops * (Experience/ 100) * (Readiness/ 00)

·Infantry Strength is halved when attacking across a river.
Tank Strength (while attacking) = (4 * Total Troops) * (Experience/ 100) * (Readiness/ 100)

·Tank strength is reduced to 1/3 when attacking across a river.
Tank Strength (while defending) = (2 * Total Troops) * (Experience/ 100) * (Readiness/ 100)

·Bomb Loads:
Bombs = Load in LBS * Experience * (Number flying/ 500)
AT Bombs = (Load in LBS/ 10) * Experience * (Number flying/ 500)
Bomb Strength = Bombs + AT Bombs

·Bombard/Artillery:
Bombard losses are taken from enemy infantry, artillery, AT guns and flak only.
Bombard Losses = (Artillery Strength + Bomb Strength * Random))/ Fort Level

·AT Fire (Anti-Tank):
AT losses are taken only from enemy Tanks.
Average AT is the average combat value of all engaged AT guns.
AT Losses = ((( Average AT * Total AT/ Target Defense) + Total Flak + AT Bombs * (Random))/ Fort Level)/ Target Defense

·Combat Firing:
Combat firing losses are taken from enemy infantry and AT guns.
Attacker Inflicted Losses = (Infantry Strength + Tank Strength * (Random))/ Fort Level
Defender Inflicted Losses = Infantry Strength + Tank Strength * (Random)




[This message has been edited by Harry (edited January 09, 2001).]