The Most Brutal Theater of War?

[KG Erwin]

In my studies of the Pacific Theater, I remain astonished at the level of atavistic fury of this war. Racial animosities and cultural differences played a large part in this.

However, just one episode brings it all into perspective: at the end of the Battle of Saipan, the horrific and bizarre spectacle of hundreds of Japanese civilians jumping off cliffs graphically illustrated the depth of Japan's will to resist. Some of this was caught on film.

Mass exterminations did occur in the European Theater, but I can't recall any episode of mass suicides. It's almost beyond belief, but just 62 years ago it happened.

[KG Erwin]

I bring this up not just because of my admiration for the US Marines.  Every soldier of every nation who fought in the vastness of the Asian/Pacific theater between 1931-1945 experienced something that was maybe unparalled in the history of warfare.   For overall brutality, and the depth of human suffering, I believe it is vastly understood or appreciated. 
 
Another example: the low-level B-29 firebombings of Tokyo in 1945.  25% of the city was obliterated, with maybe 100,000 civilians killed.    The Emperor himself visited these areas, but the Japanese leadership wasn't fazed. They dug in their heels and were prepared to have the entire country destroyed just to keep themselves in power. 

[Twotribes]

The suicides continued on Okinawa. Civilians either chose to kill themselves or were murdered by soldiers in caves with them when it became hopeless. These two instances and the fact that Japan REFUSED, when faced with utter and total destruction, to surrender and instead prepared to arm its populous with bamboo stakes to attack the invading troops are the very reason the Atomic bombs were dropped.

[soldier]

I'd vote for the Eastern front but its my personal favourite i supose. I have read  Barbarossa (Clark) & WW2 (Gilbert), theres some pretty Horrific stuff in there like on the spot village Exterminations during SS partisan sweeps etc. The Soviets were also pretty committed with their comissars and ruler. They just couldn't understand why the allies suspended aid shipments due to some U boat activity while they were sending ships on suicide missions at Sebastapol, hoping that some supplies would float ashore after the Luftwaffe had sunk em [X(]. I guess its different for us who value individual will as opposed to the needs of the state.
The Pacific definately rates up there though. The suicidal /homicidal zeal of the japanese is certainly fascinating and that footage is hard to comprehend. I wouldn't wan't to fight someone whose bent on taking you with them

[soldier]

I wonder if they would have Nuked white Germany. Dresden and other mass bombing raids didn't influence Hitler too much, in fact nothing did. I saw Downfall the other night, very brutal movie and plenty of suicide going on there. I recommend it if you wan't to be sickened [:'(]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The suicides continued on Okinawa. Civilians either chose to kill themselves or were murdered by soldiers in caves with them when it became hopeless. These two instances and the fact that Japan REFUSED, when faced with utter and total destruction, to surrender and instead prepared to arm its populous with bamboo stakes to attack the invading troops are the very reason the Atomic bombs were dropped.

I agree with you, but I don't wanna get into politics. I wanted to demonstrate why the Japanese in SPWaW are rated so highly in morale and experience, and to explain my emphasis in playing Pacific battles.

Many guys are enamored with tank battles and maneuvering fleets like it was a naval action, but the REAL combat is up close and personal, at the grunt level. Tanks in support, if you have them.

Briefly, I WILL say that the decision to drop the atomic bombs was the correct one, given the intelligence we had AT the time. Post-war apologists tend to forget the context of the decision-making process. It's all too easy to criticize with the benefit of hindsight.

[azraelck]

Well, the fast paced action of massive armored vehicles blasting awat at each other while jumping obstacles is a lot more "fun" to watch that and line of men in a half-flooded, rat infested trench firing rifles and machine guns to keep a slow moving enemy in check.
 
I think too many tend to forget; that these "casualties" were not just actors; but real men; brothers, fathers, and sons, who were being wounded and killed. I think that's the biggest problem with many people today who are into military history; they see only numbers and not people; they see little pixels on the screen and not family and friends.
 
The decision to drop those bombs was made against the reality of facing horrendous losses, likely in excess of what WWI had, with it's millions lost for uninhabitable wastes that barely ran a mile across. I don't think anyone at the time understood the facts of radiation; and the long term affects that are still being felt today. They knew the instant destruction it would cause at the epicenter, and they also knew the harse realities of the firestorms that so often did more destruction than the bombing themselves in earlier campaigns. It was a quick end to what could have been the most horrible battle ever recorded; with the destruction of two cities, the US saved an unknown number of men from certain death; both American and Japanese. Given the fanatical actions of the Japanese during the war; I firmly believe that practically the entire nation's population could have been wiped out in the ensuing battle; as shown the civilians were ready and willing to charge into battle, armed or not, and willing to die so long as they took one of our guys with them. In the end I believe those bombs were dropped for a good cause, and that was to force surrender before the real bloodbath began.  

[m10bob]

I wonder if they would have Nuked white Germany.

Of course we would have.Sorry, but your inference of race having anything to do with it makes for a silly ass inference!
Hitler was always considered the greater threat, and his willingness to use "wonder weapons"(like V1 and V2's) on any civilian populace within range was impetus to continue the march on his little world, from all fronts.
Race had no bearing on the Allied decision to eradicate the Nazis, by any means..The bombs were not developed for the Japanese, but for "the enemy".........
Good God, has the revisionist mentality taken such a hold on our thinking today???????
(I had to come back and edit my response)as the tome of the comment/question was too wrong in its' inference, and just set me off,frankly.......

[Mac67]

I have seen the footage of the suicides at Saipan in the documentary "Hell in the Pacific". Shocking stuff. The image of a Japanese woman throwing herself off a cliff because she had told by the Japanese Army that she would be raped by the US Marines sticks in my mind. A Marine who was a eyewitness to the suicides said that the civillians did not always die when they hit the ground, and admitted that he used to try to shoot them as they fell as a act of mercy. I think that the use of the A-Bombs saved a lot of American and Japanese lives in the long run, if the USA had been forced to invade mainland Japan, the casualties would have been horrendous.[/align]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Mac67

I have seen the footage of the suicides at Saipan in the documentary "Hell in the Pacific". Shocking stuff. The image of a Japanese woman throwing herself off a cliff because she had told by the Japanese Army that she would be raped by the US Marines sticks in my mind. A Marine who was a eyewitness to the suicides said that the civillians did not always die when they hit the ground, and admitted that he used to try to shoot them as they fell as a act of mercy. I think that the use of the A-Bombs saved a lot of American and Japanese lives in the long run, if the USA had been forced to invade mainland Japan, the casualties would have been horrendous.[/align]

I agree, and many of US would not be here because many of our progenitors would not have survived to create us.....

[Whitmire]

Just look at the statistics of the numbers of people killed and you know which was a more brutal theatre: the Pacific or the Eastern Front. It was a whole different war east of Europe... Extermination.

[Puukkoo]

I don't really know but it could be Japan vs China.

[Randy]

Soldier, the atomic bomb was initially developed for use on Germany. The program was conceived in 1939 as a result of
Germany's program, which did not get too much success. I believe had the war in Europe continued on as the war against the Japanese had, the bomb would have been used against the Germans as well.

[11Bravo]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

In my studies of the Pacific Theater, I remain astonished at the level of atavistic fury of this war. Racial animosities and cultural differences played a large part in this.

On the Japanese side surely. However, Japanese and Chinese race and culture would appear very similar to Americans of that era, and the American public felt very close to the Chinese people before and during during the war. Perhaps the hatred toward the Japanese had more to do with their longstanding war against China, the sinking of the gunboat Panay, their surprise attack against us at Pearl Harbor, and their penchant toward committing atrocities against both soldiers and civilians? [&:]