Still trying to wrap head around this game

[pvthudson01]

Ok so here it goes.

Here are some of the things a hex game wargamer like me just cant get into this game for. Now I am a total NOOB to this system, so I welcome all hints and fixes I can get. But I will just list some of the things that irk me about this system

1) The commands. I cannot tell a unit to do exactly what I want to save the life of me. I want to command each and every unit seperately just as I do in Battles in Italy or TOAW. I want to tell each one where to attack, move, dig in, or split off.

The problem I am having is how do I turn off the AI in this game that orders the entire group of units to do something. This morning, playing the scenario, I told one group of 3 to move forward. It also grabbed my forward scouting unit and pulled him alllllllllll the way back down the road and made him rejoin. I still do not understand how to take units out of overall command. But better yet is there a way to just turn this feature off?

2) Rebuilding bridges and pathfinding. Had a bridge blown in the tutorial. I tell my engineer to repair bridge, I set the objective RIGHT on the briidge. What does he do? he goes the opposite direction on the road north, crosses another bridge there and comes down on the other side getting in the line of fire. Then I cant cancel this waypoint to save my life. Im trying ESC and everything and the CANCEL button on the move orders is not lit up. i want to simply CNCEL that order and do waypoints to the bridge then, but all it does is tack more waypoints onto the WRONG route. Also how do I know he is rebuilding a bridge once he gets there? is there a sound Q or a graphic? I think things like this need to be worked on.

3) I miss hexes because at least I knew what was in them. If a bridge is blown, I put the guy there and I click "rebuild bridge" I have no idea where to click now to tell this guy to do his job

4) Combat. ugh. A bunch of lines across the screen that mean nothing to me other than anti personel or anti armor. I have no idea by looking at unit counters who is stronger and who has the better odds. I only get a square that changes colors and a list of anti personel forepower in the unit description. How does combat work? If two units with anti personel of 50 fire on one unit of 50 anti personel power (100 -50), that should be 2-1 odds. How is this determined? Where is the table and the list of what I need to do to eliminate this unit or force a retreat? I feel very detached form my units because there is no representation of STR or DEF and i cannot really tell what is happening to someone other than a colored box. I think the counters need much more info on them

Thats about all i can think of. I am not attacking the game but I think it fails to get me to like it. This is kinda why I was shying away from it. There are just no concrete things to the system to tell me how I am doing. I miss combat reports and unit loss tables and odds. Now I have no idea how I am doing and its very vague.

[Adam Parker]

Clicking on a unit (as opposed to an HQ) will detach it for orders. You'll know you have specific command by a white bar at the bottom of the icon. Clicking on an HQ will give orders to it and any still attached forces, so be sure ot detach nay first.
 
I find the E&S tab on the side bar essential in giving me a feel of what I command.
 
Otherwise yep, this game takes an out of the box approach to gaming!

[pvthudson01]

Yeah I think it may take me a while to get the hang of this. I had my recon unit on defend way up north. Do you think that because I clicked its HQ to order the others to move that it ended up re-attaching that recon unit?
 
Like I said its a well done game and great company, but I think I need a anti-hex brainwash seminar[:D]

[jungelsj_slith]

Sorry to hear that, especially because I recommended the game to you. It seems like it may just take some getting used to, that's all. COTA is definately a different animal than the KP/BiN that you are probably used to. One thing to keep in mind is that COTA gives up very little for the sake of realism - in other words, very little of the game is abstracted. No odds tables or hexes, or dice rolls. It's more of a simulation than a boardgame converted to PC. I can understand why it may put you off at first - but trust me, stick with it! Once you get used to it, you won't be able to go back to the old way very easily

Firstly, I would suggest turning off "order delays" - most of your problems seem to deal with this issue. This means that when you give an order to a unit, they will do it immediately. Once you're comfortable with the game, ease the order delays up once and awhile - this is where COTA really shines.

I'll answer your points to the best of my ability.

1) The commands. I cannot tell a unit to do exactly what I want to save the life of me. I want to command each and every unit seperately just as I do in Battles in Italy or TOAW. I want to tell each one where to attack, move, dig in, or split off.

The way that COTA generally works is that you give commands to HQ units, and the AI controls subordinates. I know this is strange at first, but just stick with it. It's wonderful to be able to give one command and see everything fall into place - giving an 'attack' order to a battlion HQ and watch them form up, setup up artillery and overwatch, send companies in for the assault, and even keeping back a reserve company.

The problem I am having is how do I turn off the AI in this game that orders the entire group of units to do something. This morning, playing the scenario, I told one group of 3 to move forward. It also grabbed my forward scouting unit and pulled him alllllllllll the way back down the road and made him rejoin. I still do not understand how to take units out of overall command. But better yet is there a way to just turn this feature off?

That scouting unit was probably a subordinate of one of the three units that you ordered. If you give an order to an HQ, it will give subsequent orders to everything else that is attached underneath it. If you want to detach your scout platoon, then give an order to it and only it - then it will subordinate to you, and not it's organic headquarters. NOW you can go ahead and give your previous order to the HQ unit - he will no longer command the scout, because you detached the scout.

2) Rebuilding bridges and pathfinding. Had a bridge blown in the tutorial. I tell my engineer to repair bridge, I set the objective RIGHT on the briidge. What does he do? he goes the opposite direction on the road north, crosses another bridge there and comes down on the other side getting in the line of fire. Then I cant cancel this waypoint to save my life. Im trying ESC and everything and the CANCEL button on the move orders is not lit up. i want to simply CNCEL that order and do waypoints to the bridge then, but all it does is tack more waypoints onto the WRONG route. Also how do I know he is rebuilding a bridge once he gets there? is there a sound Q or a graphic? I think things like this need to be worked on.

Try giving the order next to the bridge rather than right on it. I believe it just has to be near him. I think by giving the order right on top of the bridge, you inadvertently put the order on the opposite bank. Again, with order delays off, you would be able to delete the command and issue a new one immediately. To cancel a command, select a unit, select it's waypoint, and hit 'delete.' This will take time to go through, if you have order delays on.

4) Combat. ugh. A bunch of lines across the screen that mean nothing to me other than anti personel or anti armor. I have no idea by looking at unit counters who is stronger and who has the better odds. I only get a square that changes colors and a list of anti personel forepower in the unit description. How does combat work? If two units with anti personel of 50 fire on one unit of 50 anti personel power (100 -50), that should be 2-1 odds. How is this determined? Where is the table and the list of what I need to do to eliminate this unit or force a retreat? I feel very detached form my units because there is no representation of STR or DEF and i cannot really tell what is happening to someone other than a colored box. I think the counters need much more info on them

Don't expect to ever see clear-cut odds in this game - considering it's supposed to be realistic, you will have little info about the enemy. Because this is company level, assume that every counter you see is a company. You can use this to estimate what is ahead of you. The longer (and closer) you are in contact with the enemy, the more information you will have on him. (Interogating prisoners, observing movements, etc.) Click on the enemy unit to see what information is available.

[jungelsj_slith]

Oh, also, once a unit is repairing a bridge, select the unit. It should display some type of text in the unit info area - repairing bridge or whatever. There will also be a progress bar displayed.

[simovitch]

Hopefully I can help explain things a bit. I am hex gamer all the way back from the early '70's. It does take a bit of mental massaging to break away from the hex grid, but I can never go back now[:D]:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

1) The commands. I cannot tell a unit to do exactly what I want to save the life of me. I want to command each and every unit seperately just as I do in Battles in Italy or TOAW. I want to tell each one where to attack, move, dig in, or split off.

The game is designed to realistically protray command control on the battlefield. You CAN tell each individual unit what to do but it will cause strain on your boss HQ because you as the Corps HQ (boss) are overriding the chain of command through Division/Regt/Bn to tell each Company Commander what to do. i.e. Your staff is going nuts trying to keep control of the battlefield at that level.

The problem I am having is how do I turn off the AI in this game that orders the entire group of units to do something. This morning, playing the scenario, I told one group of 3 to move forward. It also grabbed my forward scouting unit and pulled him alllllllllll the way back down the road and made him rejoin. I still do not understand how to take units out of overall command. But better yet is there a way to just turn this feature off?

You can't turn the AI off in this respect. Selecting an individual company unit will detach him from the Bn. HQ and put him under YOUR command, but you are overloading your operational staff causing additional processing times to the rest of your subordinate commands.

2) Rebuilding bridges and pathfinding. Had a bridge blown in the tutorial. I tell my engineer to repair bridge, I set the objective RIGHT on the briidge. What does he do? he goes the opposite direction on the road north, crosses another bridge there and comes down on the other side getting in the line of fire. Then I cant cancel this waypoint to save my life. Im trying ESC and everything and the CANCEL button on the move orders is not lit up. i want to simply CNCEL that order and do waypoints to the bridge then, but all it does is tack more waypoints onto the WRONG route. Also how do I know he is rebuilding a bridge once he gets there? is there a sound Q or a graphic? I think things like this need to be worked on.

The engineers need to have their equipment on BOTH sides of the stream to reconstruct the bridge, and both sides need to be secured. There is a progress bar for the bridge reconstruction/primg/unpriming. see page 96 of the Reference Manual. Also it will take along time to cancel any command if you have "orders delay" on (especially if your Staff is overloaded [;)])

3) I miss hexes because at least I knew what was in them. If a bridge is blown, I put the guy there and I click "rebuild bridge" I have no idea where to click now to tell this guy to do his job

Page 95 of the manual says "click within 500m of the crossing". Turn on the 1Km grid if that helps.

4) Combat. ugh. A bunch of lines across the screen that mean nothing to me other than anti personel or anti armor. I have no idea by looking at unit counters who is stronger and who has the better odds. I only get a square that changes colors and a list of anti personel forepower in the unit description. How does combat work? If two units with anti personel of 50 fire on one unit of 50 anti personel power (100 -50), that should be 2-1 odds. How is this determined? Where is the table and the list of what I need to do to eliminate this unit or force a retreat? I feel very detached form my units because there is no representation of STR or DEF and i cannot really tell what is happening to someone other than a colored box. I think the counters need much more info on them

Ah yes, calculating "odds". The best you can do here I think is turn on the "strength" info box on your unit, and hope FOW is giving you a good idea of what the enemy strength is. Get a 3:1 surrounded and hope you roll a "D back 2"[:D]. Seriously though, try to get a feel for the range of your weapons and try not to get closer than you need to. Use combined arms attacks and defense, and know when to pull out of an attack that is going nowhere.

Thats about all i can think of. I am not attacking the game but I think it fails to get me to like it. This is kinda why I was shying away from it. There are just no concrete things to the system to tell me how I am doing. I miss combat reports and unit loss tables and odds. Now I have no idea how I am doing and its very vague.

Yes, it's very different form the hex-based computer wargames, and it's an acquired taste I believe. I hope you can learn to enjoy it, and I hope this helps[:)]

[RedDevil]

Hello pvthudson,

I am by no means an expert but having also taken the plunge moving from exe-based games to HTTR first and then COTA I will try to give you my view.

1) The commands. I cannot tell a unit to do exactly what I want to save the life of me. I want to command each and every unit seperately just as I do in Battles in Italy or TOAW. I want to tell each one where to attack, move, dig in, or split off.

The problem I am having is how do I turn off the AI in this game that orders the entire group of units to do something. This morning, playing the scenario, I told one group of 3 to move forward. It also grabbed my forward scouting unit and pulled him alllllllllll the way back down the road and made him rejoin. I still do not understand how to take units out of overall command. But better yet is there a way to just turn this feature off?

Of course you can micro-manage each and every unit, but this somehow defies the purpose of this game. The idea is that like any commander you rely on your subordinates to carry out the tasks you give them. Sometimes (as I guess it is in real life) it is so frustrating to see how your units select the path or mount an attack that you feel the urge to kick the computer, but again this is part of the fun of playing COTA. In summary to play COTA you have to learn to delegate [:)]
Personally I tend to reduce the micro management to a handful of units namely Arty, MG, AT although sometimes when setting up a defensive perimeter I issue direct orders to all the units (and re-attach them later with in-situ orders).

2) Rebuilding bridges and pathfinding. Had a bridge blown in the tutorial. I tell my engineer to repair bridge, I set the objective RIGHT on the briidge. What does he do? he goes the opposite direction on the road north, crosses another bridge there and comes down on the other side getting in the line of fire. Then I cant cancel this waypoint to save my life. Im trying ESC and everything and the CANCEL button on the move orders is not lit up. i want to simply CNCEL that order and do waypoints to the bridge then, but all it does is tack more waypoints onto the WRONG route. Also how do I know he is rebuilding a bridge once he gets there? is there a sound Q or a graphic? I think things like this need to be worked on.

To re-build the bridge it is sufficient to place the order marker within 500m from the bridge. What might have happened to you is that you inadevertendly placed the marker on the other side of the river and the unit just executed your order. When the engineer is in position, by clicking on the bridge a slider comes on in the toolbar indicating how the re-construction is going.
If you want to cancel an order you can press the backspace key (removes one waypoint) or issue a new order. Of course with orders delay on it takes a while before your new plans take effect.

3) I miss hexes because at least I knew what was in them. If a bridge is blown, I put the guy there and I click "rebuild bridge" I have no idea where to click now to tell this guy to do his job

see above

4) Combat. ugh. A bunch of lines across the screen that mean nothing to me other than anti personel or anti armor. I have no idea by looking at unit counters who is stronger and who has the better odds. I only get a square that changes colors and a list of anti personel forepower in the unit description. How does combat work? If two units with anti personel of 50 fire on one unit of 50 anti personel power (100 -50), that should be 2-1 odds. How is this determined? Where is the table and the list of what I need to do to eliminate this unit or force a retreat? I feel very detached form my units because there is no representation of STR or DEF and i cannot really tell what is happening to someone other than a colored box. I think the counters need much more info on them

I also have some problems in calculating if my forces will be sufficient to carry out a successful attack particulary considering that very little is known about the enemy strength. I would agree that not being able to rely on tables and odds is the real step change for any exe-based wargamer and it takes a while to adapt. I am not privy to the details of how the outcome of a battle is worked out, so I will let the experts reply to this question.

Cheers,

RedDevil

[MarkShot]

I will try to address your questions briefly as I don't have much time at the moment.

First, the AA Engine gaming is system would seem to be quite different than what you are used to. As to making any transition from one frame of reference to another, it is a "total experience" change. This is similar to the transition one makes when switching from running Windows to UNIX or speaking English to French. You will not be able to make a one-to-one mapping of each feature from the tradition hex/turn world to the AA engine. But just as UNIX and French are complete and functional systems, so is the AA engine.

So, have you tried reading and playing through the tutorials step by step? Did you try reading my Mini-Guide AAR? (You can also see the HTTR one too.) Unlike most traditional AARs, I spend a lot of time going through how one actually plays the game and works with the interface.

You mention that you would like order and control each and every unit on the map. In fact, you ask how you can disable the AI. It is, in fact, possible to play the game as your asking. However:

(1) This was not the way the game was intended to be played. No one is trying to force a method of game play on you, but your interactions and experience will not be very comfortable if in fact to play in the that manner.

(2) Turning off the AI would be like turning off the physics model in a flight or face sim. What would be the point; what would you have left after you have done that?

The basic premise of the system is a command and control based on a hiearchical structure. In fact, that is how military organizations function and many other real world human organizations. Like in the military, you issue an order to someone who is of a lower rank to yourself, from there that person takes that order and manages all the details such that their subordinates will implement your order. (This may, of course, involve them having to issue orders to their subordinates and so on.)

In the game, you are cast in the role of the senior commander on the map. This is compared to other games which may use a similar system, but are more role oriented. In such games, you may, in fact, end up subordinate to senior AI commanders. In the AA Engine, you are always the most senior commander. (There is less of a role playing component and you are in effect omniscient.)

That is what the AA Engine models. You can give direct orders to every unit map. If the unit which you give an order does not have any subordinates, then it will simply attempt to execute your order. If it has subordinates, then it will attempt to issue orders on you behalf to its subordinates.

Generally, a gaming session involves giving orders to certain HQ (headquarter) units which represent your plan. Like attack or defend here. You will usually pick at what level to issue orders depending on the scope of the battle. So, you might issue your orders at the division, brigade, or battalion level. In this manner, you are macro-managing. Additionally, there will often be orders wish you which to give to directly to varios support units (anti-tank gun, artillery, recon, machine gun, engineer, ...). Like set up a fire base here, secure that bridge there, hold this cross roads, etc... These units will often have no subordinates and will simply directly execute your orders. In this manner, you are micro-managing.

Most players will find a happy balance of macro/micro managing based on their personal style, the particular scenario, and situation at hand. This in essence is the style of game play for the AA Engine. This is the framework which you should be seeking to orient yourself to.

If your intention is to totally disable the AI, then it can best be done by:

* Disable order delays.
* Issue all orders to units which have no subordinates first.
* Find the next level of units now with no subordinates and issues orders.
* Keep repeating the above two steps until every unit has a task.

However, if that is the manner that you plan to play COTA, then you probably will not end up enjoying the game, and it probably is the wrong product for you.

I hope that helps. (I wish I had time to address your other concerns, but I am really pressed this morning. However, that seemed to be the biggest problem in my opinion.)

[pvthudson01]

Ok awesome thanks. yeah I knew it had to mostly be trial and error. Also i didnt know there were airstrikes in this game so that was pretty cool ha ha!
 
I will keep plugging along. It took me a while to get Battles in Italy down also. Ths is just so different than what I am used to. Also at the time I tried I had not printed out the reference manual yet only markshots tips and the tutorial guilde. Printing that out now as we speak.
 
So for the bridge rebuild, its best to click in the river itself?

[Agema]

For the most part, the manual can answer all your above problems.

1) Give the unit you don't want to join in a separate order first, which will detach it, then order the HQ. If you hand out a lot of individual orders to individual units though, you'll start straining higher levels of your command as they'll need to organise all sorts of little units instead of just issuing orders to battalion HQs, so be sparing about it.

You can't turn the AI and group movement system off.

2/3) An engineer cannot rebuild a bridge. You need a bridge building company with a spare bridge in their inventory. Engineers can help them out and build it faster though. Set the location of the order within 500m or so of the bridge. Preferably on the side of the river you can get to [;)]

To delete a waypoint, use the delete key. If you've already given orders and the unit is carrying them out, you'll have to issue new orders to get them to do anything else.

4) The maths is complex, but basically your units are made up of individual men, not heavily abstracted strength points. This game is roughly modelling the effects of thousands of bullets, shells and mortar effects killing individual targets. What it does is basically say X much firepower at a target in Y formation in Z terrain will deal about, say, 1 casualty every minute, or maybe 20% chance of killing someone each minute. Whether the unit retreats is a combination of its morale, experience and so on, and how much fire it is under and damage it is taking. A unit under massive fire (modelled by 'suppression') might retreat even if taking no casualties.

Also bear in mind fog of war means that you'll frequently get an inaccurate assessment of enemy units. It might say there are 150 paratroops in a target unit, when in fact it's 80 engineers. Or it could be 250 paratroops. So always be liberal about how you interpret the information on enemies.

There's no obvious way to know whether you're going to succeed or not. You may feel detached from your units because of a lack of concrete, simple stats; but I think what's actually the problem is that in COTA you're *closer* to them. In essence, abstraction makes things really easy, puts everything into easy number form. What COTA does is actually put the complexity back into the game, which earlier strategy programmers could not do due to limitations in computer power (or maybe in cases they also lacked inclination to de-abstract their system.)

I recommend also you read MarkShot's tips, he knows the thing pretty much inside out.

[Agema]

Wow, that reply seems redundant now I've finished it and seen the five arrived in before it [:D]

[wodin]

This game is so unlike a turn based game. This gives you a real feeling of command and having to rely on your subordinates. Keep plugging away and read the AAR\Mini guide.

Im sure you will get into it. Relax, trust the AI and have fun. Experiment with the two birgade attacks sceanrios.

Also start of with the smaller scenarios as you will micro manage abit more.

[pvthudson01]

Ok thanks all that was really great and fast! I will print this thread out and be diving back in tonight and retry the first tutorial. I am just so used to the AI being so bad in most games thats its weird for me to put such faith in it, but from all accounts Panther has done an awesome job with it. I just need to loosen my grip a little

[MarkShot]

Pvthudson01,

Is the COTA Mini-Guide helping to orient you to play style? (sorry to spy, but I saw you in that thread reading)

I wrote it with people such as yourself in mind showing:

(1) How to balance micro/macro management.
(2) How to make a plan and implement it via the game interface.
(3) How to monitor the progress of the battle.

It's more mechanics than the typical AAR, but less mechanics than the official tutorial docs. I hope it helps.

Take care.

[pvthudson01]

Yeah Im still going through it though its very long heh heh.
 
Ill give it more attention tonight and pick out the little details.

[raydude]

I also have played hex-based wargames in the past, but much prefer the HTTR and COTA style of play. I'd just like to chime in and say that in COTA, overruns really make me feel like I'm being overrun.

I was playing one of the scenarios last night, and I was in the unenviable position of being run over by a highly mobile force. There was a feeling of helplessness as I was trying to get my guys to withdraw, my armor finally started moving, only its attacking the wrong spot because the overrun was just too fast, and I had to manage the chaos as suddenly two more companies started routing.

That felt much more nail-biting that watching a screen say "overrun succeeded. Unit moves two extra spaces".

[jhdeerslayer]

I sympathize with you pvthudsin01 as I had experienced some of the same feelings of not having control and not having around what I am use to and comfortable when I started this series in the HTTR days. It really is just a much different and refreshing approach and a genre within itself. This engine, and the guys that develop/support it, are top notch so no issues there. Comes down to patience and your personnel taste I think. Give it time. I think it may grow on you. Really is night and day different in realism and challenge versus the hex based world (though Battles in XX are excellent of course).

[Adam Parker]

Yeah once I had some game flow going, this series really surprised me.

Pvthudson you'll know this when you finally get to being able to organize your lines and approach to target as you want only to see some strange movement at your flank - being an enemy AI recon probe looking for a weakness in your organizational boundaries!

That was a great bout of gaming for me, one day a little while ago now, with HTTR [:)]

[pvthudson01]

Alright well I had some good success in the tutorial today. I managed to get both bridges and bring my mortar up to the river edge and use my artillery to provide cover as I moved up
 
Night time now, everything is quiet!
 

 
I actually managed to get to the bridge BEFORE it was blown this time
 
I still have trouble figuring out strengths and attack values, but it kinda is making sense

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01
Like I said its a well done game and great company, but I think I need a anti-hex brainwash seminar[:D]

How much would you pay to attend such a seminar? I'm always looking for other ways to pay the bills. [;)]